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China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

reuters.com

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Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#81

Post by [deleted] »

thisisit wrote: post #54
jsonne wrote: post #11

China is doing this explicitly, but the West has been doing this implicitly for a while. Doxxing people with the "wrong" opinion and emailing their employers, friends, etc. I pretty regularly see if on Facebook where someone says something and their post or a screenshot of their post is shared hundreds of thousands of times with test that says "make this person famous". To be clear people should be called out for big…

Sorry to sound condescending but your post is one of things people dislike about the internet too - what about-ism. This is just sweeping everything under the rug by using the logic - "this is bad but what about x?" It seems as if every issue in the world needs to be discussed and solved at once or not at all. So, can we please stop equating doxxing with a government effort and trying to pass it of as being nearly th…

[deleted]

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#82

Post by walterbell »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #68
walterbell wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like every other country, they want a healthy economy, which requires innovation. China's proposed social credit system would be counterproductive to innovation, i.e. the cost may be too high.

People have been hoping for this link between freedom and economic development for years about China. It turns out that it's just wishful thinking. China is much richer and no more free than it was decades ago.

China has benefited from external IP/technology "inspiration" which is about to result in new trade barriers with the US. If their future growth depends on homegrown (instead of foreign) innovation, they could experiment with freedom within economic development zones.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#83

Post by dsfyu404ed »

pembrook wrote: post #56
jsonne wrote: post #11

China is doing this explicitly, but the West has been doing this implicitly for a while. Doxxing people with the "wrong" opinion and emailing their employers, friends, etc. I pretty regularly see if on Facebook where someone says something and their post or a screenshot of their post is shared hundreds of thousands of times with test that says "make this person famous". To be clear people should be called out for big…

While what you say is certainly true in specific cases (ie. the Facebook mob example), there is nothing in the West at an institutional level that compares to the ambitions of the Chinese Social Credit system. Also, how come every time an article is posted about something Orwellian the PRC is doing, the comments are packed with whataboutism fallacies? "Yea, but look at what's happening here in the West!" It happens s…

>or something more suspiciously intentional.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/50_Cent_Party

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#84

Post by jandrese »

RubenSandwich wrote: post #4

If anyone wants to see some of the negative effects of a persistent 'social score' that affects real life I recommend this Black Mirror episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive .

This is the first thing I thought of as well.

Once thing I kind of liked about that episode is that it was backwards from a normal Black Mirror episode. Normally they try to make the technology look fun and useful at first before they do the flip and make it horrible and dehumanizing. This episode started out like the end of a normal episode and ended with the main character doing a white girl rap battle with some random dude.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#85

Post by ajmurmann »

wehadfun wrote: post #74
RubenSandwich wrote: post #4

If anyone wants to see some of the negative effects of a persistent 'social score' that affects real life I recommend this Black Mirror episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive .

Yea that episode the "credit" was objective based on random people's opinions. According to the article, they claim that you have to not pay fines, or smoke on a train to ruin your social credit.

Or "spread falsehoods about terrorism". You are totally right about the episode though.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#86

Post by lainga »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #78
hosh wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It isn't the beginning of a new caste system. It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals. (Not that I agree with Confucian philosophy) Confucian philosophy had influenced Chinese culture for several millennial, and the oral tradition was that Confucius (Kong Tzu) himself distilled what went into the Analects from much older rites and cultures. The basic idea here is that humans don't start out as…

> It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals Confucious also said "those who cannot forgive others break the bridge over which they themselves must pass.”

Muhammad also said "Our property will not be inherited, whatever we leave is charity" - the CCP and the Saudis have engaged in a little selective reading.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#87

Post by civilian »

derefr wrote: post #72
zanny wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is a massive divide between private citizens harassing and bulling one another and governments wielding a monopoly on force outlawing and punishing dessent against the ruling class. You can sue someone for attacking you online if they cause provable financial or social distress. Go try suing the CCP in China for not providing freedom of speech and see how that unexplained disappearance treats you.

Yes, but in this case we’re talking about the government punishing the same practices that the polity will harass and bully a person over, rather than just practices that are against the state’s own interests, in addition to the state suppressing things it actually derives benefit to itself by suppressing. Or, to put that another way: if there’s a lynch-mob after you, does it matter how many of its members are in uni…

Obviously yes it matters. You got rights, and self-defense is infinitely easier if it's not the government coming after you.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#88

Post by pishpash »

hosh wrote: post #67
awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

It isn't the beginning of a new caste system. It is more like a modern iteration of very old Confucian ideals. (Not that I agree with Confucian philosophy) Confucian philosophy had influenced Chinese culture for several millennial, and the oral tradition was that Confucius (Kong Tzu) himself distilled what went into the Analects from much older rites and cultures. The basic idea here is that humans don't start out as…

Having your nosy neighborly aunties edumacating you is one thing. Having some bureaucrat or AI far away instilling virtues with no reciprocal responsibilities is something only a pompous madman can dream of, and not Confucian at all.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#89

Post by ajmurmann »

thriftwy wrote: post #45
RubenSandwich wrote: post #4

If anyone wants to see some of the negative effects of a persistent 'social score' that affects real life I recommend this Black Mirror episode: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosedive .

I like how in Nosedive, nobody is ever having fun. I mean, guests at the party (spoiler) should be amused at the ghost of the maid and the scandal, filming it and all - especially young guys. It should go completely viral. Instead they stand frowning as if they're 70 - to avoid hurting their score. Under social credit society, everybody will be forced to act like they're at the end of their life path.

The interesting thing and probably the point of the episode is that that's already what's happening in social media right now if you want to keep your followers.

Re: China to bar people with bad 'social credit' from planes, trains

#90

Post by jrs95 »

awakeasleep wrote: post #7

To me the principle of “once untrustworthy, always restricted” sounds like the beginning of a new caste system. Everyone's children are going to make mistakes. The wealthy are going to be able to cover up their children's mistakes, the poor are going to be put on 'the list' and become 'restricted.' The restrictions will grow, and eventually you'll have a new group of 'untouchables'

This isn't a permanent thing, it's 'up to one year'. Not much different than what we have in Ohio...any drug charge and your driver's license is suspended for a minimum of 6 months. It's ridiculous, yes, but it's hardly the level of totalitarianism you're describing.
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