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Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

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Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#81

Post by weinzierl »

raverbashing wrote: post #44
ballenf wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The link addresses just that: > The decision to acceed to the German Court's order to make items inaccessible from Germany is intended to be a temporary appeasement, while the appeal occurs - this is because the German appeal Court will likely look disfavorably on PGLAF if it shows contempt for the German Court.

Well, no crap sherlock I don't see why Project Gutenberg thinks it isn't subject to German law. And yes, it sucks and it is against the spirit of the internet. But it's either them being sued or ISPs being ordered to block the website.

First, I did not say they are not subject to German law.

I said that if they argue that Copyright status in another country is irrelevant [1], that the copyright status in one country is not impacted or enforceable or otherwise relevant in other countries [2], that any attempts at enforcement of the judgement would need to occur in the US Court system and that the German Court has overstepped its jurisdiction [4], the only logical consequence would have been to just ignore a lawsuit filed in Germany.

Why not wait and see if the publisher brings the case to a US court or follows the WIPO process? What harm could it do?

[1] Copyright status in another country is not relevant to the legitimate ability of Project Gutenberg -- or anyone/anything in the US -- to make any use of these books.

[2] International treaties explicitly and unambiguously support PGLAF's legal guidance as described above: that the copyright status in one country is not impacted or enforceable or otherwise relevant in other countries.

[3] any attempts at enforcement of the judgement would need to occur in the US Court system

[3] Because the German Court has overstepped its jurisdiction, and allowed the world's largest publishing group to bully Project Gutenberg for these 18 books [..]

[4] The legal guidance PGLAF received is that US law requires that such proceedings would have taken place in the US, and in fact any attempts at enforcement of the judgement would need to occur in the US Court system. PGLAF already informed Plaintiff and the German Court that the US Court system is the appropriate venue for Plaintiff's concerns. Plaintiff declined.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#82

Post by dsr_ »

Xylakant wrote: post #58
freech wrote: post #25

> mainly because the www.gutenberg.org site has some content in the German language. That's an extraordinary theory of international law. By that logic Austria and Namibia also have jurisdiction.

This is an extremely short (and misleading) summary of the courts argument. Among the reasons for assuming jurisdiction is the assumption that project Gutenberg targets users in Germany and part of that assumption is Project Gutenberg’s statement that the goal is to make the works available globally (thus including germany) (quote: “anyone anywhere”). The fact that content and at least parts of the page is available…

It is, however, a terrible theory, since the immediate effect is that every website is subject to every jurisdiction in the world.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#83

Post by raverbashing »

freeflight wrote: post #64
raverbashing wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no crap sherlock I don't see why Project Gutenberg thinks it isn't subject to German law. And yes, it sucks and it is against the spirit of the internet. But it's either them being sued or ISPs being ordered to block the website.

> But it's either them being sued or ISPs being ordered to block the website. Sued by whom? Afaik gutenberg.org is registered in California, no German jurisdiction, the cease&desist orders usually used to shut something like this down don't apply here. Same deal with ISPs: Afaik there's no legal framework to support anything like that, it's for exactly that reason why law firms like Waldorf and Frommer uses cease&des…

Rights owners in Germany would request the blocking to the Justice system, due to theirs rights being violated

If someone hosts a website in another country, hosting US copyrighted material, I assume something similar would happen if the site refused to take the material down

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#84

Post by freeflight »

stale2002 wrote: post #63
jaakl wrote: post #32

> PGLAF is entirely in the US PGLAF has awesome mission, but that base assumption is not really correct. With publishing content in Germany (or whatever country) over Internet (or otherwise) they have crossed physical and legal borders. You must obey local laws everywhere and US laws are legal in their soil only. The attitude that US laws are something globally applicable and Internet is something above local laws is…

> total blockage “revenge” is just plain childish. It seems like it is working to get them publicity. If germany doesn't like that they are now being blocked, then they should change their laws. It is their website, so too bad for germany. Protesting ridiculous copywrite laws is perfectly reasonable.

> If germany doesn't like that they are now being blocked, then they should change their laws.

Sadly it ain't as easy as that, the copyright lobby is very powerful in Germany, with their very own special interest laws like "mitstörerhaftung" [0] and the "Impressumspflicht". It's stuff like that which prevents open WLAN easily being run and operated because in Germany the person running the AP is liable for everything that happens trough said connection.

There are a ton of law firms who solely generate their income by sending out bulk cease&desist letters to torrent seeders, people who don't have a proper "Impressum" on their webpage and a number of other "formal" reasons. Kindergartens and retirement homes have gotten c&d letters over singing Christmas songs amounting to "copyrighted content".

These letters pretty much boil down to "Pay this fine and sign that you won't do it again if you still do it again you are liable for several thousands of € in damages".

Most people just pay the "fine" (usually starting at around 500€ sometimes quite a bit higher depending on the content) as it's easier and less hassle compared to taking it to the court, which are quite often technological inept and thus are very likely to side with the claimant's version of "This is theft/piracy!". It's pretty much a very own sub-sector of law firms in Germany.

Most people often think practices like these are something reserved to the US, a while ago, but Germany has its fair share of copyright insanity going on too. At this point, I'd guess Germany is even a far bit crazier than the US.

[0] https://qz.com/694618/why-is-it-impossible-to-find-free-wi-f...

[1] https://www.rockit-internet.de/en/what-is-an-impressum/

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#85

Post by jaakl »

stale2002 wrote: post #63
jaakl wrote: post #32

> PGLAF is entirely in the US PGLAF has awesome mission, but that base assumption is not really correct. With publishing content in Germany (or whatever country) over Internet (or otherwise) they have crossed physical and legal borders. You must obey local laws everywhere and US laws are legal in their soil only. The attitude that US laws are something globally applicable and Internet is something above local laws is…

> total blockage “revenge” is just plain childish. It seems like it is working to get them publicity. If germany doesn't like that they are now being blocked, then they should change their laws. It is their website, so too bad for germany. Protesting ridiculous copywrite laws is perfectly reasonable.

Totally agree that bulk of the copywrite laws are unreasonable and unfit for the digital age. However, for me more interesting question is why they even went into the German court. In theory Germany could issue international warrant, but I doubt if they do it for minor cases, think of e.g. Snowden, Assange and Polanski cases. So at most they could have ordered blockage of the site/IP in their side, as long as book-specific ban is probably technically not doable. Also they may blacklist the offending persons from entering Germany/EU. Maybe US lawyers just saw big case with revenue and gave 'good' advice to go to the fight?

So if someone sues me due to this post, then good luck with that, unless you figure out where I am.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#86

Post by philippnagel »

dsr_ wrote: post #82
Xylakant wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extremely short (and misleading) summary of the courts argument. Among the reasons for assuming jurisdiction is the assumption that project Gutenberg targets users in Germany and part of that assumption is Project Gutenberg’s statement that the goal is to make the works available globally (thus including germany) (quote: “anyone anywhere”). The fact that content and at least parts of the page is available…

It is, however, a terrible theory, since the immediate effect is that every website is subject to every jurisdiction in the world.

While possibly terrible, the logic is not deniable.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#87

Post by Xylakant »

dsr_ wrote: post #82
Xylakant wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an extremely short (and misleading) summary of the courts argument. Among the reasons for assuming jurisdiction is the assumption that project Gutenberg targets users in Germany and part of that assumption is Project Gutenberg’s statement that the goal is to make the works available globally (thus including germany) (quote: “anyone anywhere”). The fact that content and at least parts of the page is available…

It is, however, a terrible theory, since the immediate effect is that every website is subject to every jurisdiction in the world.

No, that’s not the effect. If you make a website in the US hosted on US servers that does not obviously target german customers then you don’t fall under german jurisdiction. It’s not sufficient that your site is generally accessible from germany.

However, if you do add things as “we ship to germany” to a shop then you fall under german jurisdiction - which is fine in my books, because the customer should have a simpler legal recourse than the company.

Having to conform to foreign laws is just the flip side of being able to reach those people easily.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#88

Post by raverbashing »

weinzierl wrote: post #81
raverbashing wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, no crap sherlock I don't see why Project Gutenberg thinks it isn't subject to German law. And yes, it sucks and it is against the spirit of the internet. But it's either them being sued or ISPs being ordered to block the website.

First, I did not say they are not subject to German law. I said that if they argue that Copyright status in another country is irrelevant [1], that the copyright status in one country is not impacted or enforceable or otherwise relevant in other countries [2], that any attempts at enforcement of the judgement would need to occur in the US Court system and that the German Court has overstepped its jurisdiction [4], th…

Ah that's a better explanation

Let's think of something different: I print one of those books and send it to Germany. I assume the person receiving the book could be subject to prosecution. But if the company that did that is also present in Germany (offers services in Germany) then I suspect they would be held responsible as well.

Re: Project Gutenberg blocks access from Germany

#90

Post by thesimon »

astrodev wrote: post #78

> "It also seeks punitive damages and fines." But there is no such thing as punitive damages under German law?

They also claim

>Pay Court costs, assessed at 50% of total costs. This is estimated to be at least 50,000 Euros, but is not yet assessed.

which seems false. The court set the amount involved in this case to 100k€, which would incurr about 3k€ in court costs and around 5k€ for each sides lawyers.

50k€ of costs would only occur if they would fight this through to the surpreme court. They don't seem to want this though.

Regarding the punitive damages: You are correct, the court awarded them damages, no punitive damages, no fines.

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