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Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

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Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#81
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been to four places without tipping in restaurants, Italy, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Japan. I would say all of them had better service than here in the US. In particular, the East Asian countries I visited all have _excellent_ service without tips. I suspect quality of service has a lot more to do with cultural factors unrelated to tipping.

Italy? I don't believe your experience was universal.

I experienced nothing but exceptional service in Italy.

Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#82
post #43
post #36

I hate tipping culture. When I was young and a waitress in college, I noticed horrible racism from waiters who treated minorities badly due to tipping stereotypes. Please just get rid of it for living wages.

Have you been in countries without tipping culture? Almost all of them have much worse service quality.

Of the countries in which I've lived, 2 stand out as regards tipping culture, Spain and France.

Spain has a tipping culuture and the service is mediocre; service is sometimes chaotic (eg food arrives before drinks) and slow, eg asking for bill, paying bill, getting the change takes a long time.

France has a no-tip culture; service is correct, friendly and efficient, despite the stereotype of Parisian serving staff.

My theory is that quality of service isn't related to the tip, but is related to the cultural acceptability of shit service.

Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#83

> as long as they pay those workers at least the minimum wage Do US employeers not have to pay workers the minimum wage?

Tipped employees make less: "According to a common labor law provision referred to as a “tip credit”, the employee must earn at least the state’s minimum wage when tips and wages are combined or the employer is required to increase the wage to fulfill that threshold." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tipped_wage_in_the_United_Stat...

Yes, but the minimum wage applies to the 40-hour work week, so the wage can be kept low by being overscheduled.

Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#84
post #43
post #36

I hate tipping culture. When I was young and a waitress in college, I noticed horrible racism from waiters who treated minorities badly due to tipping stereotypes. Please just get rid of it for living wages.

Have you been in countries without tipping culture? Almost all of them have much worse service quality.

I live in Australia where tipping is either frowned upon or reserved for exemplary service.

Perhaps your idea of “good service” is coloured by your own culture. For example in the USA it is rude to summon a waiter while everywhere else it is rude for the waiter to intrude.

There are also different signals such as ROTW putting cutlery together to signify “I am finished” and crossed to signify “still eating”, or whether to place your napkin yourself or have the waiter help you. Then there are different habits such as paying staff a proper wage and not relying on a hangover from slavery to support waitstaff.

Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#85
So the articles says that they can take tips if they pay the minimum wage -- given the minimum wage for jobs that traditionally have a significant tip component is typically much lower than the "minimum wage" (because it's made up in tips, right?), does this mean that they're referring to the non-tip minimum wage?

Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#86
post #35
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the wait staff has so much control over restaurant cleanliness, food quality and temperature etc etc etc...

The tip goes to the wait staff. The bill goes to the chief/ingredients/building upkeep/owner. Tipping won't improve the entire experience, but it can improve the service.

If the service can be improved, but can only be improved by bribing staff to do their job properly, that's a terrible indictment of the hospitality business.

Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#87

> as long as they pay those workers at least the minimum wage Do US employeers not have to pay workers the minimum wage?

As others have said, employers have a much lower minimum wage for tipped workers in most states. However, perhaps unintuitively, workers still usually prefer tipped over non-tipped jobs because you can usually bring home more money through tips than through the minimum wage

[deleted]

Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#88
post #47

While we are on the subject of tipping does anyone find it slightly annoying that every point of sale system now is configured to ask for an additional tip? Clover, Revel, Square, etc. Some have different levels of UX where you are basically prompted to give 15%, 20%, 25%. I wonder where the tip actually goes in this case?

"Tip creep" or "guilt tipping" is simply milking [1][2][3] the social conventions around tipping while you're standing in front of the would-be beneficiary, card in hand.

Most of the tip goes to the seller, of course. But most payment processors deduct their fees from the total amount after taxes and tips, like Square does [4], so if the final transaction amounts are higher, as they are in this case, they make more money too.

[1] https://qz.com/730315/squares-design-guilts-us-into-tipping-... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/01/business/dollar3-tip-on-a... [3] https://www.fastcodesign.com/3022182/how-square-registers-ui... [4] https://squareup.com/help/us/en/article/5068-what-are-square...

Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would be shocked if female waiters in the US are paid less than male ones. Got a source?

I was mainly referring to general wage discrimination across all industries, but here's a few references for the restaurant industry from 10 seconds of googling: http://rocunited.org/publications/tipped-over-the-edge-gende... – The industry follows a conscious business model of confining women to the lower-paid positions within restaurants. Women are hired for only 19 percent of chef positions, for example, even thou…

> women are hired for only 19 percent of chef positions, for example, even though traditionally most women are more likely to do a majority of the cooking at home.

This is a ridiculous statement. Cooking at home has zero to do with going to culinary school and becoming a chef. If you visit most restaurant kitchens -- the line cooks and dishwashers are almost always men (or at least 80%+ of them,) based on my experience in working in probably 10 different restaurants in my life.

Working as a line cook is often part of the career progression of becoming a chef. At the finer restuarants, the line cooks are often "staging" while they're in culinary school. If anyone has ever worked as a line cook in a real restaurant, one would know that it's pretty brutal work -- lots of dirty cleaning, standing in front of hell-fire ovens and grills for entire shifts -- at a pretty pitiful level of pay. Certainly, women do it, but even remotely comparing that career with making lasagna in a home kitchen is like suggesting that I should be a race car driver simply because I drive a car every day or that I should be a stand up comedian just because I can make my kids laugh.

> Women and workers of color are often pushed into the lowest-paying jobs in the food service industry, according to a report from the Restaurant Opportunities Center United, a labor advocacy group.

At the beginning of the comment, we just were discussing how only 19% of chefs are women, but then we complain that women are pushed into the "lowest-paying jobs" -- such as the kitchen. The kitchen is where you start if you want to be a chef. And, most kitchens I've ever worked in had few women. Most of the women were in the front of the house making real money, while those of us in the back were cutting and burning ourselves for $10 per hour with the goal of moving up in the kitchen brigade at some point. The dishwashers are almost always men. I don't think I've ever seen a female dishwasher at any fine dining restaurant I've ever worked at. Obviously there are women dishwashers, but there are a heck of a lot more front-of-the-house women than there are in the back of the house. I've seen very few female busboys. I can't remember a single one. I've seen many men barbacks -- but can't remember seeing a single female barback. In fact, the pretty women are typically in the highest paying position in the resturant (aside from the general manager) -- bartenders. I've been denied many jobs as a bartender because the bar "only hired women bartenders." Although I had no problems getting a job as a doorman or a barback.

> ..people of color are channeled toward even lower-paying jobs such as bussing and kitchen positions.

Chefs didn't start in the kitchen as chefs. Managers typically didn't start as managers. Almost universally chefs started by working on the line. Managers often started as waitstaff or even busboys. Whoever is providing this "data" seems like they've never actually worked in a restaurant, nor experienced how the business works and how people move up in the industry. Also, a non-trivial number of back-of-the-house workers are illegal aliens who are both "of color" and willing to work for far lower wages.

It isn't that people "of color" are being sent to the kitchen as punishment -- but often those with limited English proficiency aren't generally going to be front-of-the-house. In my anecdotal experience working in a variety of restaurants in Houston, black people and white/Hispanic women were typically working as waitstaff -- and making far more money than the white/Hispanic males working in the kitchen. Bartenders trended female, general managers trended white male, kitchen managers were black, white/Hispanic and male. Sous chefs were commonly white male or female. Pasty chefs were generally white or black female, dishwashers were older hispanic men, busboys and barbacks were young Hispanic men. Line cooks were white or Hispanic men. Executive Chefs -- typically white or black males. Completely anecdotal for sure -- but, at least in Houston, restaurant racism was something I don't think I ever saw; and I worked in a lot of places, especially in the high end. I was a manager of a few places, mostly at the bar, so I saw the nightly tip declarations -- anyone making the claim that women make less in tips than men or that certain races make lower tips than others -- I would have to doubt their experience in the business. Women often made more. People of color made just as much as anyone else.

Here's an article from a Houston magazine about black chefs in Houston: http://www.outsmartmagazine.com/2017/02/in-praise-of-color-i...

Key quote: "I see many African Americans [chefs] in good restaurant kitchens in Houston—too many, in fact to cover in this article.."

One of the most exclusive restaurants in Houston, Tony's has a female chef. The 2017 Houston James Beard semi-finalists were an extremely diverse group: https://www.visithoustontexas.com/culinary-tours/culinary-bl...

There might have been only 2 white males among all those nominees.

Re: Women would lose $4.6B in earned tips if ‘tip stealing’ rule is finalized

#90
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

By Federal Law they have to be paid minimum wage. However, any waiter who can't clear more than minimum wage is doing it wrong.

Yes, but that requires the person knowing that law, and being in a position where they feel they can report it without fear of retribution. Most people who fall victim to wage theft don't fall into those groups. In California, and Oregon, apparently, they are paid minimum wage from the start, and receive their tips on top of that, instead of being paid some "tipped alternative minimum wage" and then hoping that my em…

Every single resturant kitchen with a time clock I've ever been in in my entire life has some variation of the following poster:

https://www.laborlawcc.com/uploads/image/california-los-ange...

And it's always posted in English and Spanish -- including phone numbers of who to confidentially call to report violations. If people choose not to report violations -- that's really on them. We're generally talking about adults here -- not helpless children.

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