How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices • Hacker News Board

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#81

Post by anigbrowl » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:12 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #73

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pure free market Capitalism is playing a game of Monopoly where after each time anyone passes go, the player with the most money gets to create a new rule. Guess what? The game is gonna get pretty skewed, pretty darn fast. Consolidated money is power. The only way that capitalism can work long term is if there are rules actively countering/fighting using that power to change the rules. Money is power and capitalism c…

>>Consolidated money is power. The only way that capitalism can work long term is if there are rules actively countering/fighting using that power to change the rules. Yes. This is why I'm in favor of term limits, as well as a rule that outlaws "revolving doors"[1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_door_(politics)

That sounds nice, but why don't proponents of term limits ever offer evidence for their claim? We already have term limits in California. The result? Politicians spend a lot of their time in office figuring out how to leapfrog up the political ladder - usually city/county school board, to supervisor, to state assembly, to state senate, to Congress. They are never in one place long enough to build stable networks of influence (superficially a good thing) but that just means they're easier for lobbyists to manipulate (definitely a bad thing).

I have an open mind on term limits, but since they exist in multiple jurisdictions why don't you show, with data, that they are leading to qualitatively different outcomes where they have been implemented?

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#82

Post by hammock » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:12 PM UTC

fredley wrote: post #23

komali2 wrote: post #5

If you unplugged Apple's board (or given decision-making apparatus) and plugged in a (currently nonexistent) AI with the parameter "Maximize Profit," would you see a different result? I think not. I think we'd see things far more morally horrifying, in fact, with just enough PR makeup to ensure "maximized profit." Unsure why we laud capitalism and then act horrified at the result. Here in America we've made our decis…

This is not the fault of Capitalism alone. In a healthy democracy, the people vote in the Government, who can impose fines, tariffs, penalties and such on companies and business practices that the people (via the people they elect) deem to be working against them. Sadly, as you point out, this creates a direct incentive to lobby or otherwise attempt to control Government by large and powerful companies. The only way…

>The only way to prevent this is to impose fines, tariffs and penalties

The ONLY solution to an abuse of power by government is more government exercise of power? How about limiting the powers of government to remove the "direct incentive to lobby"?

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#83

Post by Oletros » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:12 PM UTC

fleitz wrote: post #62

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was not a law but a secret bespoke areangement.

That seems unsupported by the article, in 2015 Ireland changed its laws, Apple consulted a law firm on advice on how to proceed and sought assurances from the govts involved that it's understanding of the law was correct. Where is this agreement you speak of?

The case against Apple is not about Double Irish, is about a secret agreement with Irish Government on how to account the revenue in Ireland

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#84

Post by tomxor » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:12 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #70

RingwormOne wrote: post #24

Don't fault corporations for exploiting legal loopholes to save money... They optimize what they must optimize as operating businesses, and if we the citizens want to compel them to do something we must pass the laws necessary to do so... Stop moralizing the behavior of companies. They aren't humans. If you choose not to buy apple products in reaction to their behavior, great. If you want to convince your friends to…

Every human being in that company should be held accountable for their actions. Someone, somewhere said "Yes let's do it this way", and they committed an (arguably) immoral act by doing so.

[EDIT] My incorrect interpretation of parent comment who means accountability on an individual basis (see children).

---

I know where you are coming from but this level of extremely inclusive accountability would result in either: Everyone from the janitors to the legal team being held accountable for corporate tax evasion or: a company wide democracy on every decision that could potentially result in legally or morally grey outcomes.

IMO, in addition to individual accountability investigations, the company should be impeded somehow to make scapegoating a less attractive route (the hidden decision makers pushing other peoples buttons still get hurt by proxy).

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#85

Post by nautilus12 » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:14 PM UTC

RingwormOne wrote: post #24

Don't fault corporations for exploiting legal loopholes to save money... They optimize what they must optimize as operating businesses, and if we the citizens want to compel them to do something we must pass the laws necessary to do so... Stop moralizing the behavior of companies. They aren't humans. If you choose not to buy apple products in reaction to their behavior, great. If you want to convince your friends to…

I disagree with this whole heartedly. Laws like this are not deterministic procedures, they are more like best practices. Can you seriously argue that Apple is not a functioning member of society? For many its a daily companion.

It should be held accountable to behave like a good citizen within society like everyone else and not find ways to sidestep the law.

If society can oust an individual like Weinstein and hold them accountable for their actions why not a company? A company consists simply of a group of individuals making decisions with moral implications no different than an individual. Demoralizing companies is the most irrational proposal I've ever heard. Capitalism is not a computer program, it is a set of guiding principles meant to operate within a society of well intentioned and reasonable individuals that are held accountable for their actions.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#86

Post by microcolonel » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:14 PM UTC

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #63

fredley wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the fault of Capitalism alone. In a healthy democracy, the people vote in the Government, who can impose fines, tariffs, penalties and such on companies and business practices that the people (via the people they elect) deem to be working against them. Sadly, as you point out, this creates a direct incentive to lobby or otherwise attempt to control Government by large and powerful companies. The only way…

Pure free market Capitalism is playing a game of Monopoly where after each time anyone passes go, the player with the most money gets to create a new rule. Guess what? The game is gonna get pretty skewed, pretty darn fast. Consolidated money is power. The only way that capitalism can work long term is if there are rules actively countering/fighting using that power to change the rules. Money is power and capitalism c…

> Pure free market Capitalism is playing a game of Monopoly where after each time anyone passes go, the player with the most money gets to create a new rule. Guess what? The game is gonna get pretty skewed, pretty darn fast.

I think you've misunderstood the free in free market. If anyone is allowed to make rules like that, it is not a free market, not superlatively, not normally, not even slightly.

The problem here is that you have a government apparatus which has outgrown its mandate in ways that were not adequately accounted for, which makes it ripe for the picking.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#87

Post by neil_s » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:15 PM UTC

enraged_camel wrote: post #73

BoiledCabbage wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pure free market Capitalism is playing a game of Monopoly where after each time anyone passes go, the player with the most money gets to create a new rule. Guess what? The game is gonna get pretty skewed, pretty darn fast. Consolidated money is power. The only way that capitalism can work long term is if there are rules actively countering/fighting using that power to change the rules. Money is power and capitalism c…

>>Consolidated money is power. The only way that capitalism can work long term is if there are rules actively countering/fighting using that power to change the rules. Yes. This is why I'm in favor of term limits, as well as a rule that outlaws "revolving doors"[1]. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolving_door_(politics)

@shhkmo, are you proposing choosing random people off the street to be our elected officials for short terms? That is such an interesting idea!

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#88

Post by koenigdavidmj » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:16 PM UTC

mrguyorama wrote: post #66

whatok wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure Apple is following existing tax laws.

That depends if you believe tax law should be about checkboxes or about keeping to the spirit of giving back to the community that made you

Yes, I prefer a law where I can take a possible action and judge by the text whether that action is legal or not, rather than always trying to avoid pissing off a fickle public, like trying to avoid waking a husband who drinks too much so you don't get a black eye.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#89

Post by jjtheblunt » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:17 PM UTC

canuckintime wrote: post #4

rrggrr wrote: post #2

If passed, and for a brief period of time, Trump's dollar repatriation tax scheme brings home some of the +2 trillion dollars sequestered abroad - including some of the billions Apple has parked offshore. http://www.businessinsider.com/trump-gop-tax-reform-plan-bil... There's something to be said for Apple's efforts to level the playing field against the favorable tax & public policies under which Samsung and Huawei…

Or the US Congress could just change the law, close the loophole and require corporations to bring the money home anyway without any tax holidays...

No, they couldn't. The money belongs to foreign corporations also named Apple whatever.

That little issue is purposefully glossed over for the sake of sensationalism to sell advertising, of course.

Re: How Apple sidestepped a 2013 crackdown on its Irish tax practices

#90

Post by rockinghigh » Mon, Nov 06, 2017, 7:17 PM UTC

evv wrote: post #44

fredley wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not the fault of Capitalism alone. In a healthy democracy, the people vote in the Government, who can impose fines, tariffs, penalties and such on companies and business practices that the people (via the people they elect) deem to be working against them. Sadly, as you point out, this creates a direct incentive to lobby or otherwise attempt to control Government by large and powerful companies. The only way…

It's a noble idea that government should exist to protect consumers from corporations. But it will never work unless there is some authority that could protect the governments from the corporations.

That authority is the justice system. Corporations also have rights and they can defend them by going to court.