Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

81–90 of 250 posts

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#81

Post by gabrielgoh »

epistasis wrote: post #80
gabrielgoh wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, counterfactual causation is the gold standard in science, but it is extremely difficult to pin down experimentally (in this case it requires an experiment, or a natural experiment, where people are forced to drink 2 drinks daily over a span of 30 years. This is not only impossible but unethical.). The judgement of causation from correlation is usually an art not a science, with the use of such things as instrum…

I think the request here isn't to change this paper, or the article, but for the headline to be "Even moderate drinking correlated with atrophy in brain areas..." This is on the editor's heads.

i'm saying that headline says too little. The authors of the paper strongly suggest that there is a causative effect in the paper, and I think its very reasonable this is reflected in the title of the headline.

[edit] Even the title of the original paper is "Moderate alcohol consumption as risk factor for adverse brain outcomes and cognitive decline" which suggest causation. why should the headline be weaker than the title of the paper itself?

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#82

Post by QuantumGravy »

jamroom wrote: post #50
protonfish wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The mistake you are making is about dosage. All substances are toxic or harmless depending on the amount.

You're right of course, but the "correct" amount of alcohol is still going to be much more toxic than most other foods that enter your body. Alcohol is a poison.

> Alcohol is a poison.

A meaningless blanket statement.

Methanol is a poison, far worse than ethanol, yet you've likely consumed it in small quantities from what you would think of as non-alcoholic sources. If there's no safe level alcohol consumption, you'd best stick to consuming your fruit unripened or avoiding them entirely. Again, relative toxicity is meaningless without also taking dose into account.

You could easily say the "correct" amount of oxygen is toxic, much more so than nitrogen even at sea level, and not be technically wrong. Change up the pressure and mixture and you might find the nitrogen causing more immediate (though not toxic) danger.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#84

Post by Cyph0n »

I'm always interested to see how people react to a news article or study that criticizes alcohol. I have noticed over time that alcohol consumption is usually a taboo subject to discuss for some reason, and almost everyone I talk to immediately gets on the defensive when I say that I don't drink and never will. Can anyone shed some light on why exactly people don't like it when someone doesn't drink, especially when it's for health reasons?

Anyways, I'm not surprised that most of the comments here are either outright defensive or are just proposing ways to undermine the content of the study. Reading through the comments, arguments include: the one size fits all "correlation is not causation", ad hominem attacks on WaPo itself, half-jokingly accusing the article author of drinking, and arguing the semantics of what constitutes a "drink".

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#86

Post by DanBC »

haswell wrote: post #32
jogjayr wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article says a 12 oz beer (slightly larger than the standard 330ml beer) is 1 drink for the purposes of the study.

I couldn't get beyond the paywall, but did they mention which sort of beer? Standard Bud/Miller products? Using a 12 oz beer as a starting point doesn't mean much in a craft beer world with most "good" beers ranging from 5-8% ABV. Edit: not really understanding the downvotes? Alcohol content is extremely important in understanding the meaning of a "drink". Not trying to be pedantic, but now more than ever, "a beer" i…

In the UK we use "units of alcohol".

One unit of alcohol is defined as 10 ml of pure alcohol.

That's about 8 gm (I think).

In the UK the strength of an alcoholic drink is given as Alcohol by Volume, as a percentage.

Beer is typically about 5%.

To work out the unit you multiply the serving size in liters by the ABV number.

A 330 ml bottle of beer at 5% = 0.33 * 5 = 1.65 units. (The bottle would probably say 1.7 units.)

The US uses a different amount of alcohol for their standard drink. I think they use 12 gm of pure alcohol.

(EDIT: I didn't downvote you. I upvoted you. I don't understand the downvotes.)

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#87

Post by unethical_ban »

abawany wrote: post #43
mortenjorck wrote: post #3

Study finds correlation. Article mentions caveat that correlation is not causation. Headline explicitly states causation. This is certainly a very interesting correlation, and demands further study. Perhaps there is a causal link. But it's just (predictably) irresponsible journalism to head such a piece with a factually incorrect headline.

I also find that the recent cuts in editorial staff at various newspapers is having a noticeable effect on quality. I subscribe to the NYT and noticed that after their recent editorial layoff, some of the articles had some egregious spelling and syntax errors.

I have noticed it too. I also believe some of the "hard news" articles have opinion on them in a manner that puts me off. WaPo isn't even trying to hide it.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#88

Post by DanBC »

kmm wrote: post #85

I wonder if there's a difference between acute and chronic alcohol consumption of the same amount. Drinking 14 units in one event every 2 weeks amortizes to one unit per day, but would it have the same effect?

There are a range of harms associated with alcohol, and binge drinking increases your risk of some of them.

So, even if it's fine your your brain (and I'm not sure it would be) it's increasing your risk for other damage.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#89

Post by derekp7 »

enraged_camel wrote: post #53
buckbova wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

CS Monitor shoots pretty straight https://www.csmonitor.com/ .

Lest people think The Christian Science Monitor is a religiously biased pseudoscience outlet, it isn't. In fact it is one of the best news sources available internationally if you are looking for a fact-based news outlet with excellent reporting and minimal bias. This Reddit thread has more info: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/cuun9/what_do_yo...

Also, Christian Science is not the same thing as Scientology.

Re: Moderate drinking associated with atrophy in brain related to memory, learning

#90

Post by gozur88 »

marssaxman wrote: post #11
startupdiscuss wrote: post #4

But they define "moderate" as 2 drinks/day for a man. That is 14 drinks a week which puts you in the second highest decile for Americans! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/09/25/think...

Americans are practically teetotallers, apparently?

We drink about 30% less alcohol than the Brits and the French (who drink about the same amount).
Post reply on HN