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‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

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Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#771
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could certainly argue about methods, but on October 8th, what options did Israel have except invasion of Gaza?

This, but further more, there are 100s of comments about "the genocide" here, but almost none about what Israel should do. They have a neighbor who just committed a huge act of terror and whos standing installed political party calls for the elimination of the country. They live in a region where their ethnic group has essentially been wiped out systematically in all neighboring countries. So, "Stop the genocide" and…

Israel should have captured terrorists without destroying the whole city and killing random people. Don't know if it was possible though but it is the obvious answer.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#772
post #690

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And this has eliminated the whole Western bullshit about human rights maximalism That's the truth. "Never again". Clearly our politicians do not believe in human rights or international law. What do they believe in? Democracy? I doubt it. Money? Western exceptionalism? More likely. Where do we go from here? Why would anyone ever take any moral argument from a western nation seriously ever again?

What we have learned again is that actions speak louder than words and that without action you can't achieve anything. Western nations aren't doing anything nor are middle eastern governments, nor asian governments. My takeaway is that the UN needs to be replaced with something without the 5 veto powers. Both Gaza now and Syria could have been prevented with peacekeeping missions if it weren't for the US and Russia a…

> Western nations aren't doing anything nor are middle eastern governments, nor asian governments.

On the other hand, middle Eastern nations and Asian nations are typically protesting loudly, they don't protect Israel in the UN, they recognize the Palestinian state, they don't sell weapons to Israel.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#773
post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could certainly argue about methods, but on October 8th, what options did Israel have except invasion of Gaza?

This, but further more, there are 100s of comments about "the genocide" here, but almost none about what Israel should do. They have a neighbor who just committed a huge act of terror and whos standing installed political party calls for the elimination of the country. They live in a region where their ethnic group has essentially been wiped out systematically in all neighboring countries. So, "Stop the genocide" and…

>> This, but further more, there are 100s of comments about "the genocide" here, but almost none about what Israel should do.

They should do what all other countries do when they are attacked: defend themselves and not seek to take the attack as an opportunity to invade their neighbours.

You want an example? Look at the recent India and Pakistan crisis, and the Thailand and Cambodia crisis that is only now being resolved. In both cases there was fire exchanged, war was on the brink, then it was held back and reason and peace prevailed. The countries in question won't be best friends, they won't like each other, but they're not bombing the shit out of each other, levelling each other's cities to the ground and ethnically cleansing their populations.

The difference in Israel-Palestine of course is that Israel has the upper hand militarily and by many orders of magnitude so it doesn't have to make peace. It can afford to bomb the Palestinians for as long as it likes, it can afford to ethnically clanse them even at the risk of ethnic cleansing turning into genocide, it can afford to impose a medieval-style siege on Gaza where no food goes in and no Palestinians come out, it can afford to do anything it likes and nobody can stop it, certainly not Hamas with its risible military ... I can't even say "strength"; weakness is more appropriate. The redoubtable Islamist terrorists fight with their grandfathers' hand-me down AK-47's from "terror" tunnels (that have to be called that to sound even vaguely threatening).

The maddening thing is that exactly because Israel has such overwhelming military superiority -and not just against Hamas, but also against Lebanon, Syria, Iran sorta, everyone around it- they can absolutely make peace if they wanted. Its enemies would surely prefer that to having to fight Israel. Even Hamas' founders once resolved to make peace with Israel and what did Israel do? It assassinated them [1].

It is clear that Israel has convinced itself, as a nation, over multiple governments and generations, that its best interests are served by making constant, total war on its neighbours. Israel doesn't want peace.

But, to answer your question: that's exactly what it "should" do; make peace. That's the only way to not make war.

______________

[1] Sheikh Yassin: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Yassin

Yassin on several occasions proposed long-term ceasefire agreements, or truces, so called hudnas, in exchange for Israeli concessions. All such offers were rejected by Israel. Following his release from Israeli prison in 1997, he proposed a ten-year truce in exchange for total Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza and a stop to Israeli attacks on civilians. In 1999, in an interview with an Egyptian newspaper, he again offered a truce:[41]

    We have to be realistic. We are talking about a homeland that was stolen a long time ago in 1948 and again in 1967. My generation today is telling the Israelis, 'Let's solve this problem now, on the basis of the 1967 borders. Let's end this conflict by declaring a temporary ceasefire. Let's leave the bigger issue for future generations to decide.' The Palestinians will decide in the future about the nature of relations with Israel, but it must be a democratic decision.[41]
It was shortly after once such truce offer, in January 2004, that Yassin was assassinated.[42]

His second in command was also assassinated for the same reason. Can't find the article now.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#774

What's everyone's thoughts on the GHF? They're the only way that food officially enters Gaza. IDF is not supposed to be immediately present at the distribution sites, and yet are shooting civilians. As are contractors hired by GHF. In fact there are cases of nationals joining IDF for the explicit purpose of shooting civilians, seemingly. There are movements to disband the GHF, but how else would Gazans eat?

If we assume good faith on the part of the Israelis, and believe that the GHF is genuinely an attempt to feed the civilian population of Gaza without food and money making its way to Hamas, it's clearly totally inadequate. There are too few sites operating for too little time; it's a recipe for chaos and panic. There's been countless reports of violence on way to the sites; the IDF has made several excuses for this, but even if we assume good faith on the part of the Israelis here too, the excuses aren't good enough: it needs to be taking proactive steps to fix the problem instead of denying, deflecting, and passing the blame.

It's a shame - if the GHF were being run well, it'd be a great first step in trying to win hearts and minds. But it's not.

The other extreme is that it's an elaborate ruse to, frankly, put Gazans in positions where the IDF will be able to claim justification for killing them. This seems paranoid, but no more implausible than the alternatives. The sites open at the crack of dawn, Gazans rush to get ahead of the crowds because there aren't enough sites, so they travel through the dark in areas controlled by IDF where movement is forbidden before daybreak; the IDF shrugs and says, "well, there were unknown targets travelling through off-limit areas in the dark, we had to neutralize the potential threat". And at the sites themselves chaos inevitably ensues - because, again, there aren't enough sites - and violence is deployed to keep the crowds under control.

But my suspicion regarding the GHF is that it's mostly just a half-assed attempt from Israel to try to get the international community off their back while they continue their siege effort to starve out the Gazans, and/or possibly a grift to enrich various friends of Bibi or Trump.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#775

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes we should encourage changing minds. ...Except I clocked Israel as having genocidal ambitions within days of Hamas' attack, right about the time their generals started talking about cutting off power and water to the entirety of gaza. I have imagine I am both less informed and more naive than any of these politicians. I don't have to applaud them when they spinelessly slither with the prevailing political winds.

hamas could surrender tomorrow and end any pretense or cover for the "genocidal ambitions". you are being incredibly racist towards palestinians by infantilizing them and suggesting that hamas doesn't have any agency or responsibility for this war or it's effect on innocent civilians.

Agency? Weak orgs does not have agency. You could claim Netanyahu has been running the Hamas nomination committee by bombs.

I would guess they are mainly cells of self playing pianos by now with some expatriot spokesmen.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#776
post #447

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Israel's response was obvious as soon as the attack happened. "Oh, looks like they've got that excuse they've been wanting."

Why did Israel unilaterally withdrew its military forces from Gaza and dismantled its settlements in 2005? It gave them what they wanted, and look what it got in return. Murderous terrorism.

Why did they build the settlements?

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#777

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's hard to describe to people who don't have family there, but this exactly. The goal is similar to American "manifest destiny". They want to, through whatever means necessary, displace (at best) the existing Palestinian population and take their land.

Israelis voted in a government 20 years ago just to pull out from Gaza and give them their autonomy (which Gazans used to swiftly vote in Hamas, and that was the single and last time they had elections since). Saying Israel was interested in that land is disingenuous.

settling the west bank breaking international law while claiming otherwise strikes me as disingenuous.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#778

I see an increasing number of politicians taking the position: "I supported Israel's government's actions when they first attacked, given the goals of destroying Hamas' leadership and freeing hostages, but now that it has turned into a brutal siege with mass civilian casualties on a horrific scale, I'm strongly against their actions." E.g. Macron, Angus King, and many people I know personally. And I think we need to…

It’s fine to accept your mom or your neighbor changing their mind, but I think we should be skeptical of politicians changing their mind and consider what hidden, calculated motives they may have for changing it now, when they had plenty of information to reach the same conclusion over a year ago.

But in the scenario above, is this necessarily flip-flopping? Saying "Israel deserved a chance to protect itself, but now that they are going way overboard, it's time for some tough love instead" seems reasonable to me, and doesn't imply any kind of changing one's mind.

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#779

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not how "don't do war crimes" works. It's incumbent upon Israel to find an alternative.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that Israel has decided to starve out Gazans in order to end the war. You have the choice to save them by offering a better solution. What is it? "Not X!" is a copout. Unfortunately for that perspective, finding a good solution means diving in and understanding the conflict from the Israeli perspective.

[deleted]

Re: ‘I witnessed war crimes’ in Gaza – former worker at GHF aid site [video]

#780

I see an increasing number of politicians taking the position: "I supported Israel's government's actions when they first attacked, given the goals of destroying Hamas' leadership and freeing hostages, but now that it has turned into a brutal siege with mass civilian casualties on a horrific scale, I'm strongly against their actions." E.g. Macron, Angus King, and many people I know personally. And I think we need to…

While I agree it's very important to welcome people who changed their minds, there are a few things that still annoy me: - the situation was actually very clear from the start - Israel has been illegally occupying, enforcing apartheid, committing war crimes for decades. You always ignored it. - I don't hear any apology about the above, nor any indication that these people won't return to their default stance of prete…

Was it clear? Did we always ignore it? Not convinced at all. All was and is not well in Palestine, but one thing I know, it ain't cut-and-dry, and Israel going all Hamas on Palestine doesn't make it so either.
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