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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#771

Post by geofft »

snappyTertle wrote: post #265
geofft wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because that's the primary way that governments aren't just corporations: if the rulers (the majority, in a democracy) believe that Uber needs to go out, or at least needs to stop participating in the market in certain ways, the government can enforce that via its monopoly on violence. This has historically worked pretty well for human society; for instance, if someone gets the clever idea to participate in a market…

Why should a majority be able to decide who and who doesn't get to participate in the market?

Not "a majority," "the government". It happens to be the case that the government in the US is (in theory, and usually in practice) majority rule, but in a monarchy, the ruler has the unilateral right to decide who gets to participate in the market or not.

If you don't think this is legitimate, two questions:

1. Is it legitimate for the government to restrict foreign participation in markets, or to place rules like tariffs on their participation?

2. Was it inappropriate for the greater military force in the US in the 1860s to decide that Southern plantation owners could not participate in the cotton market if they continued to use slave labor?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#772

Post by PhasmaFelis »

harryh wrote: post #128

Let's be clear here. The laws Uber violated here were bad laws. They were the result of a semi-corrupt relationship between city governments and taxi cab companies. Uber has been the prime mover in killing these laws. That's a good thing.

Some city governments and some taxi cab companies.

It bugs me that people talk like there's some kind of global Big Taxi monopoly that Uber is heroically disrupting. That's drinking the Kool-Aid.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#773

Post by PhasmaFelis »

remx wrote: post #160

I like this. Some call it hustle, others call it evading LE because cashflow is king, and nothing shall stop the flow. I commend this but also frown at it for being so brazen. If such a tool was used for the opposite reasons (spotting crime and reporting it to police), then perhaps the tool might stand a chance, but showcasing it in full view of LEOs is outright brazen and guaranteed to embarrass. People are campaign…

> I commend this but also frown at it for being so brazen. If such a tool was used for the opposite reasons (spotting crime and reporting it to police), then perhaps the tool might stand a chance

That's like commending a hammer murderer for his swing technique, but frowning on him for practicing on skulls instead of nails.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#774

Post by 59nadir »

timecube wrote: post #578
mkolodny wrote: post #563

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or like non-Jews hiding Jews from the Nazi police. Obviously that's a dramatic example, but so is the drug dealer example. If Uber believes that the taxi industry is wrongfully colluding with the government to try to stop Uber from operating, then it's not necessarily wrong for Uber to do whatever it can to continue operating.

https://youtu.be/t5zQpN28xa4 Life imitates art.

Actually, the art in this case imitated this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN-vUaawaF8

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#775

Post by jccooper »

Qworg wrote: post #451
hype7 wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Herein lies the source of the disagreement. We are all better off because uber willfully disregarded these laws and regulations. These laws once had a good reason, but are now still on the books only because incumbents have regulators in their pockets. As for lobbying to have the laws changed, if you expect startups to be able to lobby in every jurisdiction to get the law changed against incumbents when the regulator…

We're all better off? That's an incredibly broad statement. The laws on the books still exist for a good reason. Even if you feel that Uber is somehow exempt/makes good choices with the people it chooses to employ via the platform, does that apply to any other "uber-esque" groups with more lax enforcement?

"The laws on the books still exist for a good reason."

That's... optimistic. Many laws were put in place to benefit other (incumbent) businesses, or in reaction to conditions that no longer hold, or due to ideas proven false or at least no longer fashionable.

That's not necessarily good reason to break the law (though sometimes it is), but anyone shold feel free to lobby for removal or change of a law.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#776

Post by freeflight »

lacampbell wrote: post #548
freeflight wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If I don't like Uber, I can... stop using Uber Keep in mind, this is only possible as long as there's an actual alternative to Uber. Once they, or any other multinational for that matter, manage to establish a monopoly you will be flat out of other options. Even worse: Once they are well aware of their monopoly they will abuse it in every imaginable way. Don't be evil.. at least until you are big enough. >It seems p…

No, it's not. If you dislike "government" so much you are always free to move to a place where there's less or even none of it. Case in point: Somalia has barely any government to speak of, pretty much no regulations and very high rates of firearms ownership, it's basically "libertarian utopia". Strangely enough, barely any libertarians would want to live there? Oh, a Somalia expert. I was wondering when one of these…

I never claimed to be an "expert" on Somalia, I merely pointed out that it's among those countries that have what supposedly makes a good "libertarian utopia": Barely any regulations, due to the government being ineffective at actually enforcing them, and high rates of firearms ownership.

>Somalia has had a central government since 2007 - but I'm sure you already knew that.

They have some government going that is barely able to project itself across the country.

>I'm also curious about your opinion of the Barre Administration and the (presumably) high standard of living the government provided during that time.

That's a non-sequitur, just because some governments failed/had been ineffective at what they're supposed to do, does not mean that all of them are failing/are ineffective at what they are trying to do.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#777

Post by fatbird »

ad_hominem wrote: post #606
azernik wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence "common norms and morality".

A: "I need a ride" B: "I will give you a ride for $10" A: "Okay!" I would say a government interfering in such a simple transaction is immoral and violates common norms. Traditional taxi cabs and the gov't regulations that propped them up is a textbook example of rent-seeking.

If taxi regulation is rent-seeking, then Uber and Lyft, bypassing those regulations, should have much lower costs because no rent to pay. So how come they can't profitably offer a cheaper service, or a much better service at the same price?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#778

Post by TheSpiceIsLife »

ad_hominem wrote: post #606
azernik wrote: post #588

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hence "common norms and morality".

A: "I need a ride" B: "I will give you a ride for $10" A: "Okay!" I would say a government interfering in such a simple transaction is immoral and violates common norms. Traditional taxi cabs and the gov't regulations that propped them up is a textbook example of rent-seeking.

How about a regulation that the driver isn't a violent criminal.

What about a regulation that the vehicle must meet some set of minimum safety standards.

What about some regulation around how far that $10 should get you.

What about some regulation that protects the drivers as a class of employees or contractors.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#779

Post by thecrazyone »

aub3bhat wrote: post #651
odbol wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Laws take years, even decades to change. We'd never have any progress if every technological advancement had to wait for the law to catch up and regulate it.

how dare you utter such impure thoughts on a forum named "Hacker News". Regulations is always for the greater good!!! /s

Haha, not sure why this is being down voted. This is meant to be a funny, sarcastic comment :-)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#780

Post by thecrazyone »

wheelerwj wrote: post #758
booleandilemma wrote: post #540

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Greyball makes it easier for Uber to continue breaking the law. It's like drug dealers using police scanners to determine if the police are nearby.

actually the drug dealer police scanner analogy is pretty appropriate even if its not 100% accurate. Is it inherently illegal for a drug dealer to scan for police in the area and close shop if they believe officers are nearby?

I get what you're going for. Where's the line beyond which avoiding detection / policing is wrong. Like for example, if I'm a terrorist, then if I'm plotting an attack and avoiding surveillance and policing, would I still be wrong if I've not executed the plot yet?
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