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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#401

Post by dragonwriter »

rebuilder wrote: post #387
dragonwriter wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught Using a tool to avoid getting caught is, itself, evidence that one is aware of the impropriety of the action thereby protected. Many view this kind of awareness as increasing the shadiness of the underlying action.

Isn't this a "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument?

No, because it's not the tool alone it's the shady act without the tool vs. the shady act with the tool.

(And it mostly only applies to acts that, while perceived as shady, wouldn't be perceived as outright evil on their own -- no one thinks that something that is unquestionably murder on its own is more evil because you tried to conceal it [0], but if you are taking your co-workers' food out of the fridge, the idea that it wasn't intentional wrongdoing is harder to maintain when you're also caught stashing the wrappers in someone else's trash.)

[0] "No one" is a dramatic exaggeration, of course, and this assumes that the acts done in concealment aren't evil on their own, etc., etc.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#402

Post by evgen »

rebuilder wrote: post #387
dragonwriter wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Greyball is just the tool they used to keep from getting caught Using a tool to avoid getting caught is, itself, evidence that one is aware of the impropriety of the action thereby protected. Many view this kind of awareness as increasing the shadiness of the underlying action.

Isn't this a "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" argument?

No, a bit closer to 'mens rea' with regards to conspiracy.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#403

Post by neom »

vogt wrote: post #48
neom wrote: post #22

The company I work for builds software platforms for cities, tldr: we have a pretty basic sub/pub idea for city data, and give them a little abstraction tool that allows folks who work in cities but don't know what an API is a way to create and publish one so they can then hold the vendor to account (From IoT to the Ubers and Lyfts of the world) - I spent a lot of time in cities talking to them and the way uber has l…

Off topic, I just checked out your site. Cool stuff. I work for a labor market data company of whom EDO/WIBs are a large portion of our client base. I'm curious to what kind of data you have at the zip level.

Decent. Feel free to email me. John@stae.co

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#404

Post by hype7 »

ForHackernews wrote: post #378
avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

> I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. If they find the laws unacceptable, they should lobby to have them changed.

Herein lies the source of the disagreement.

We are all better off because uber willfully disregarded these laws and regulations. These laws once had a good reason, but are now still on the books only because incumbents have regulators in their pockets.

As for lobbying to have the laws changed, if you expect startups to be able to lobby in every jurisdiction to get the law changed against incumbents when the regulators often come from the industry the startup is disrupting, then I got a bridge to sell you.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#405

Post by ycmbntrthrwaway »

HorizonXP wrote: post #6

How diabolical! In a world where privacy has been traded away for convenience, it's poetic justice where a startup uses data mining techniques to subvert the government. This is the same government that would have no issues to use the same techniques to spy on its own people for its own motives. I'm neither on Uber nor the government's side in this case, just simply making an observation. The lack of data privacy see…

I'm totally on Uber side here. Both Uber users and drivers use the service voluntarily. It may discriminate, be unsafe, whatever, but I just ride a bus and don't care.

When government tries to interfere with voluntary exchange, it is OK to circumvent it.

See what HN says when government tries to prevent you from using certain websites or services (Signal messenger, just for example). We call it censorship, use VPNs and circumvent government regulations all the ways possible. Service providers hide behind CDNs and use domain fronting to increase collateral damage, move to liberal countries and things like that. It is the same case here.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#406

Post by Karunamon »

SilasX wrote: post #338
jfoutz wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

>If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. It reminds me of the VW emissions cheating case: "Hey, have it detect whether the test cycle is running and emit a signal if true." 'Um... why would the system need to…

Uber's support is pretty worthless - every interaction is with a different person, and none of them read the conversation history. I'd expect the person would get a runaround and just wind up going in circles.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#408

Post by Karunamon »

blackguardx wrote: post #367
mindcrime wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. I would volunteer to work on that project because its whole point is to evade law enforcement. A lot of us (hackers/technologists) take a pretty dim view of arbitrary State regulations and "laws" and are quite happy to work to evade them. Most people who fit the t…

How far does your scofflaw streak go? Is this different from adding law enforcement blocking controls to any illegal tech product? Should everyone get to decide what laws to follow? I think you are describing anarcho-capitalism, not libertarianism.

Should everyone get to decide what laws to follow?

You act as if they don't already. Society works pretty well anyways.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#409

Post by hype7 »

blackguardx wrote: post #367
mindcrime wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. I would volunteer to work on that project because its whole point is to evade law enforcement. A lot of us (hackers/technologists) take a pretty dim view of arbitrary State regulations and "laws" and are quite happy to work to evade them. Most people who fit the t…

How far does your scofflaw streak go? Is this different from adding law enforcement blocking controls to any illegal tech product? Should everyone get to decide what laws to follow? I think you are describing anarcho-capitalism, not libertarianism.

Yes, everyone should decide what laws to follow. Ask rosa parks or any poor soul unfortunate enough to be a citizen of nazi Germany.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#410

Post by pharrington »

mindcrime wrote: post #311
jfoutz wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. I would volunteer to work on that project because its whole point is to evade law enforcement. A lot of us (hackers/technologists) take a pretty dim view of arbitrary State regulations and "laws" and are quite happy to work to evade them. Most people who fit the t…

Assuming you're against -arbitrary- people and entities operating above the law, how do you square that with the opinion in your comment?

A broader point is that its 2017; we have a decent grasp of chaos theory. We know that self regulation in chaotic systems takes the form of hard to predict cycles of extreme variation. We know that stabilizing these systems requires external adjustments to parameters; some dampening here, a little increase there, etc. Personally, I've grown to quite enjoy being a part of an economy that has some measure of stability introduced to it.

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