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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#561

Post by bonestamp2 »

Spooky23 wrote: post #468
SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

Perhaps this is the reason they want to collect your location when you're not using the app. Need to be sure that city employees are going to city hall, after all.

That could be true, it could also be to help predict demand/needs for the service.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#562

Post by M_Grey »

SilasX wrote: post #338
jfoutz wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. It's genius in a Lex Luthor kind of way. If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. There's a big difference between keeping secrets for market advantage and to evade the law. In the first case, I want…

>If I understood the full scope of the application, I like to think i'd decline to work on that. It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. It reminds me of the VW emissions cheating case: "Hey, have it detect whether the test cycle is running and emit a signal if true." 'Um... why would the system need to…

It may be that asking questions like that is simply not encouraged at Uber.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#563

Post by mkolodny »

booleandilemma wrote: post #540
avn2109 wrote: post #309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

Greyball makes it easier for Uber to continue breaking the law. It's like drug dealers using police scanners to determine if the police are nearby.

Or like non-Jews hiding Jews from the Nazi police.

Obviously that's a dramatic example, but so is the drug dealer example.

If Uber believes that the taxi industry is wrongfully colluding with the government to try to stop Uber from operating, then it's not necessarily wrong for Uber to do whatever it can to continue operating.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#564

Post by cozzyd »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #533
ForHackernews wrote: post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Corporate citizens have an obligation to obey the laws of the jurisdictions in which they operate. If they find the laws unacceptable, they should lobby to have them changed.

Do regular citizens, such as Rosa Parks, not have the same obligation? Personally I consider civil disobedience of unjust laws to be acceptable, for either a single person or for an organized group of people (such as Uber).

Yeah good point, Rosa Parks also made billions from her civil disobedience.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#565

Post by pharrington »

aianus wrote: post #559
pharrington wrote: post #521

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, civil disobedience accepts the legal consequences of its actions and is part of a vocal, public effort to change the laws the person or group deems unjust. The entire premise is to create better laws for everyone to abide by. Uber uses deception to shield itself from the consequences of its criminal actions and consolidate wealth for itself. I'm assuming you're not trolling, so think long and hard about your o…

I don't see how they aren't "creating better laws for everyone to abide by". They're not a monopoly on ridesharing and because of their efforts converting the hearts and minds of consumers and politicians others can do it too like Juno, Tesla, Lyft, etc.

Assertion: medallion regulations are currently onerous and against the financial interests of cities and citizens. Uber's public and explicit proposal to change the medallion system: " "

Your statement applies to literally every company that has lobbyists. You need way more than that to present evidence for your claim.

Again, civil disobedience's core mechanism for gaining the support needed to enact the change it publicly and explicitly advocates for is to accept the consequences of breaking the unjust laws.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#566

Post by CaptSpify »

warcher wrote: post #515
CaptSpify wrote: post #422

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, that's complicated but... I currently use android, and lyft won't work without permanent access to my location and contacts, which I consider unacceptable. I'm supposed to get the ubuntu phone in about a week, and afaik, there's no lyft client for that. There is an uber webpage, m.uber.com or something that should work with it though. This is all untested on my new phone, so I may be incorrect.

hahaha Man, I knew there were gonna be some libertarians on this thread.

FWIW, I would strongly not consider myself libertarian |;)

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#567

Post by Spooky23 »

bonestamp2 wrote: post #561
Spooky23 wrote: post #468

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps this is the reason they want to collect your location when you're not using the app. Need to be sure that city employees are going to city hall, after all.

That could be true, it could also be to help predict demand/needs for the service.

It could.

But when a company profiles people and refuses service based on inconvenient occupations or employers, how can you be sure?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#568

Post by Ardren »

candiodari wrote: post #534

And what if the tool doesn't actually track police officers ? Tracking bad customers by credit card, and making it difficult for them to inconvenience other drivers after doing it a few times would seem to be a quite normal thing for any credit card payment receiver to do. I mean this thing would probably be looking for jokers (think ordering pizza to your neighbour's house), people with invalid credit cards, people…

Please don't throw out random speculations before reading the article.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#569

Post by getpost »

spitfire wrote: post #107

Lets not forget that YC has endorsed Uber multiple times in public statements. When YC says "be naughty" this is what they mean. They'll try to distance themselves from this now, but their statements were "be naughty" while holding up AirBnB and Uber as examples to be proud of. Take what you will from that.

In jurisdictions where Uber is illegal, Uber's graywall activities are organized crime; there's no other way to put it. How is it any different than, say, an app that advises drug couriers where there are (possibly undercover) enforcement agents. This is serious stuff, and in no way does the desire to provide better taxi service justify it.

In 20 seconds of googling I didn't find pg urging entrepreneurs to be naughty. I did find YC's ethics policy[1], and the only mention the of the law that I see is related to sales tactics, "Not using misleading, illegal or dishonest sales tactics." This needs revision.

There are lots of laws that are challenging and problematic, even impractical to follow exactly, e.g., the tax code. It's one thing to interpret the tax code in your favor; it's another thing to write a program to distort your business information to avoid taxes.

[1] https://www.ycombinator.com/ethics/

EDIT: Found the naughtiness link. Reading now.... EDIT 2: I'm completely opposed to drug laws. Drugs laws are sickening and immoral, and our society and countless individuals have paid a terrible price as a result of these laws, but that doesn't make it ok for me to sell drugs on the street.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#570

Post by aantix »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #477
mindcrime wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's easy to imagine engineers working on small parts of the system, and never really connecting the dots that the whole point is to evade law enforcement. I would volunteer to work on that project because its whole point is to evade law enforcement. A lot of us (hackers/technologists) take a pretty dim view of arbitrary State regulations and "laws" and are quite happy to work to evade them. Most people who fit the t…

And here I thought that's just teenagers "who fit the techno-libertarian or cypherpunk mentality", and only until they finally grow up. The mindset you're describing is pretty self-centered and ignorant of how societies work. The law is there to reconcile conflicting interest so that people don't start using violence to pursue their goals. Techno-libertarian teenagers should imagine what would happen if some people t…

How dare Rosa Parks defiantly take a seat at the front of the bus..

How could she be so self-centered and... adolescent?

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