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How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

nytimes.com

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Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#461

Post by SilasX »

avn2109 wrote: post #309
austenallred wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine there are people who don't view it as a breach of ethics. And those types are probably more inclined to be working at Uber on the first place. I mean if you really believe the various transportations administrations are corrupt and that the way to solve it is to temporarily disregard the law, then Uber is probably the place to be

I seem to be the minority here, but I don't see how any entity (including Uber) has an obligation to make it easy for the law to ticket them. Anyone who uses e.g. the Waze app to evade speedtraps is similarly guilty of "systematically avoiding the law." Lastly, let me just disclaim that I think Uber is run by assholes and so is the police.

True, but there's a big difference between turning away anyone who looks like a cop (as biker bars might do, and is on firm legal ground), versus lying specifically to those people you believe to be cops.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#462

Post by corin_ »

freehunter wrote: post #242
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [credit card BIN numbers] plus public payroll records Do California public records really make available where specific public employees bank?

Anyone who has a California State and Federal Employees Credit Union debit card is probably a good indicator. I saw an Illinois State Police Federal Credit Union branch recently and really thought to myself... that might be giving away a little more information than I'd be comfortable with if I were a cop. I mean, anyone going to that credit union is pretty likely to be, you know, a police officer. So if a criminal w…

Police buildings (stations, offices, etc.) where they work every day would probably be more useful than a bank.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#463

Post by Spooky23 »

hype7 wrote: post #409
blackguardx wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How far does your scofflaw streak go? Is this different from adding law enforcement blocking controls to any illegal tech product? Should everyone get to decide what laws to follow? I think you are describing anarcho-capitalism, not libertarianism.

Yes, everyone should decide what laws to follow. Ask rosa parks or any poor soul unfortunate enough to be a citizen of nazi Germany.

So Travis Kalanick is a modern day Rosa Parks? Really?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#464

Post by wonder_er »

leephillips wrote: post #356
Karunamon wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, but the fact that it's debatable at all means that you don't automatically get to automatically classify breaking a law as a moral evil.

Oh, I agree. But I would consider a business moving into an area and gaining a competitive advantage by violating local laws that constrain their competitors to be some kind of breach of the social contract, and just not cricket. If that's in fact what Uber has done - I'm not really conversant with all the details. I don't think I have an inordinate respect for the law, but I also don't think that "but the law is stu…

The "social contract" theory is pretty hard to defend. Lots of people have tried, few have succeeded.

I'm just about to finish up _The Problem of Political Authority_ [0] and the author (Prof at Colorado University - Boulder) gives the social contract an _excellent_ rundown.

TL;DR: There is no social contract. It's a politically useful idea not rooted in moral law.

[0] https://www.amazon.com/Problem-Political-Authority-Examinati...

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#466

Post by leroy_masochist »

danielweber wrote: post #434
leroy_masochist wrote: post #352

I wonder what rate of false negatives is, in terms of assigning Greyball status to someone who is not in fact a local official conducting a sting operation. Picture a 19-year-old woman in college whose dad convinced her to put Uber on her phone so she'd have a way to get home safely at night -- and linked her account up to his credit card so she wouldn't worry about having to afford the ride. Now picture her leaving…

It would be pretty stupid to make your very first use of a service an escape from a dangerous situation. Lots of people are scared to use Uber/Lyft at first and need to be convinced to ride.

I get that it would be stupid, but wouldn't it also be pretty realistic for a college student to use Uber for the first time when she knows it's too late and she's too drunk for the walk home to be a good idea? Especially if she's a responsible individual who doesn't want to rack up charges on Mom and Dad's credit card, and therefore this is the first time she's pulled the trigger?

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#468

Post by Spooky23 »

SilasX wrote: post #111

It took me about 8 paragraphs in to figure out what Greyball is, so to save you the time: Uber used various data sources to identify which people are likely government officials who are trying to collect incriminating data on them, and then blocks them from the service so they can't be caught in sting operations. But there's a lot in the article that doesn't make sense: >Other techniques included looking at the user’…

Perhaps this is the reason they want to collect your location when you're not using the app. Need to be sure that city employees are going to city hall, after all.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#469

Post by snappyTertle »

ubernostrum wrote: post #294
snappyTertle wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And an even better question: Would we need to ask ourselves these questions if these nonsense laws didn't exist?

Of course not. If we got rid of all these laws the corporations would simply enforce terms of service on us, containing whatever they want. And then would argue that we freely entered into those terms of our own free will by being born where we were and when we were!

How would they enforce these evil TOS? They don't have the power to do so.

Re: How Uber Used Secret “Greyball” Tool to Deceive Authorities Worldwide

#470

Post by matt4077 »

JoshTriplett wrote: post #106
Fede_V wrote: post #39

This is incredibly awful, but not particularly surprising. One of Paul Graham's most read essays is about the qualities that YC looks for in founders ( http://paulgraham.com/founders.html ). In that essay, he specifically discusses 'Naughtiness' as a positive quality, and how it's one of the most important features of potential founders. The problem is that being clever and hacking around a system for curiosity is go…

> Being willing to break dumb rules to show how pointless they are is an excellent public service. Breaking rules that stand in the way of your profit is completely different, and it's important to call it out. Depends on whether you view this particular detail as part of providing a service people want (and thus want to pay for), or whether you view it as exclusively in the service of profit (whether it benefits peo…

There's a system set up to determine what rules are necessary, and some VC-funded bro isn't in a position to second-guess them (beyond his power at the polling booth).

Your standard seems to be that a service should be legal if two or more people agree on a contract("providing a service people want and thus want to pay for").

But by that standard, there isn't a single regulation that is necessary. Sell a car without seatbelts? Sure – all fine if you can find people to buy it. Migraine treatment with low-dose cyanide? Some people will try it.

Regulations are attempts to (a) protect third parties from externalities or (b) to allow people to survive without doing an incredible amount of research into everything they consume. It's easy to dismiss them because we have no idea of all the things that aren't happening. But the fact that your money has been safe at banks for the last 70 years, or that deaths from fire, food-born illness or traffic accidents has been reduced dramatically – all that traces back primarily to government regulation.

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