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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#761

Post by jeremyjh »

frockington1 wrote: post #630
fileeditview wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concealing all kinds of information to "protect" the sheep-like citizens is counterproductive and dishonest. An honest discussion is the best way to avoid spreading of false information which will always exist to some degree. However politicians more and more try to avoid all discussion with the voters and just convince them of the rightfulness of their doing. If you don't accept their way you must be wrong, maybe ev…

They've taken it a step further in recent years. Not only should you be shielded, but if you have wrong think then society should be shielded from you. Australia is the most extreme example but you can see the punishment of wrong think creeping up everywhere

But at the same time the discourse has gotten far stupider. People just believe anything shared with them on Facebook and have no interest in seeing it debunked. I agree with you and GP that scientists telling people the whole truth is the only path forward but the fact is these scientists in this email chain did not have the whole truth, and we may never have it because China doesn't seem to want anyone to know the origin of this virus. So having a policy of not engaging in public speculation is not quite the same as a policy of silence or a cover-up.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#762

Post by Diesel555 »

brigandish wrote: post #388
jacquesm wrote: post #341

If this comment thread is the way the self proclaimed smartest forum on the web deals with articles like this then we're doomed. This article contributes zero actual evidence, is littered with out of context quotes (including of all places the title), doesn't appear to understand the science or the probabilities involved and finally is clearly written with an agenda. It shouldn't have been posted to HN in the first p…

What would that evidence look like? The House Committee on Oversight and Reform have a press release with more detail[1], which the Telegraph mentions - it's how I found it - and you can download a pdf which contains the partially redacted emails. It doesn't seem to me that the Telegraph has misled anyone regarding this news at all. Perhaps you could read it and be more precise as to where you think they're providing…

The draft United States Innovation and Competition Act of 2021, S.1260 which passed the Senate 68-32, has verbiage on the lab leak too - it requires a report from the Director of the National Intelligence to Congress within 180 days which provides:

> (1) an assessment of the most likely source or origin of the SARS–CoV–2 virus, including a detailed review of all information the United States possesses that it has identified as potentially relevant to the source or origin of the SARS–CoV–2 virus, including zoonotic transmission and spillover, the Wuhan Institute of Virology (WIV), or other sources of origin, transmission, or spillover, based on the information the United States Government has to date;

> (5) an account of efforts by the PRC to cooperate with, impede, or obstruct any inquiry or investigation to determine the source and transmission of SARS–CoV–2 virus, including into a possible lab leak, or to create or spread misinformation or disinformation regarding the source and transmission of SARS–CoV–2 virus by the PRC or CCP, including by national and local governmental and health entities; [1]

I look forward to seeing the report.

[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/senate-bill/126...

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#763

Post by Kimcha »

post_from_work wrote: post #190
TrispusAttucks wrote: post #79

So much data drops and narrative shifts taking place re:covid data. Allegedly those [1] project defuse documents submitted to darpa we're legit. How they gonna wiggle out of that if so? Brace for house of cards collapse. [1] https://www.projectveritas.com/news/military-documents-about...

I looked up Major Murphy using Marine Online's Locator: he shows up, with his place of work as the Office of Naval Research. My initial skim of the docs didn't raise any immediate red flags to me (things like poor adherence to Naval Correspondence standards for documents). Seems legit. Just my $0.02...

Have you read the actual documents?

Most of it is Murphy’s unsubstantiated opinion.

All the quotes in the video are from Murphy’s opinion and not from the leaked funding request documents.

Nowhere in the documents is any proof that DARPA rejected the research due to gain of function concerns.

All we know from the documents is that HealthAlliance requested funding to research and vaccinated bats.

That’s it.

Everything else is fan fiction by a soldier.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#764

Post by awb »

korantu wrote: post #711
awb wrote: post #708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The research in question happened in 2016 and was called “W1V1”. Regarding the 2016 work: https://www.technologyreview.com/2021/06/29/1027290/gain-of-... > Since bat viruses like WIV1 haven’t been confirmed to cause disease in human beings, her biosafety committee recommended BSL-2 for engineering them and testing them and BSL-3 for any animal experiments. > In response to questions about the decision to do the resea…

The point is, they did work with coronaviruses in level 2 lab, and similar works might or might not have concluded by end 2019. (If not by these particular researchers)

Of course, but it bears repeating that it’s a theory lacking evidence at this point.

The idea of COVID leaking from a Level 2 lab 2 blocks from the Wuhan wet market is solely circumstantial.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#765

Post by rhino369 »

frockington1 wrote: post #627
josteink wrote: post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the one hand, yes, science should be completely open and unhindered by geopolitics. > > But recall that Trump was in the White House at the time. And so? Does the name of the current US president alter unrelated facts and findings?

It's almost a religious cause to some people. If _______ is in Office than I must do anything I can to protect or remove them. I think it's a symptom of watching to much cable news and not talking to real people with opposing views. Sadly this spills over into what should be research and fact based studies

You don't think an experiment killing 20 million people is worth it if we can make sure Trump doesn't have a good media-cycle? What are you some sort of fascist.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#766

Post by jacquesm »

tim333 wrote: post #697
jacquesm wrote: post #341

If this comment thread is the way the self proclaimed smartest forum on the web deals with articles like this then we're doomed. This article contributes zero actual evidence, is littered with out of context quotes (including of all places the title), doesn't appear to understand the science or the probabilities involved and finally is clearly written with an agenda. It shouldn't have been posted to HN in the first p…

I think you are missing the context. It's not that it proves or disproves the lab leak hypothesis. It's that it shows the scientific authorities were deliberately misleading the public by saying it's a crazy conspiracy theory while in private believing it quite likely. And as to why that matters rather than "It shouldn't have been posted to HN" type suppression - we have millions dead in this outbreak and "At least 5…

> while in private believing it quite likely

That's not what they said or believed. That's exactly why I have a problem with this whole exercise, it seems to me to be mostly a game of jump-to-conclusions.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#767

Post by jacquesm »

deviantbit wrote: post #656
jacquesm wrote: post #341

If this comment thread is the way the self proclaimed smartest forum on the web deals with articles like this then we're doomed. This article contributes zero actual evidence, is littered with out of context quotes (including of all places the title), doesn't appear to understand the science or the probabilities involved and finally is clearly written with an agenda. It shouldn't have been posted to HN in the first p…

I know something about probabilities. What is more likely, a virus occurs naturally blocks away from a Virology Institute that researches the very type of virus we're dealing with, or the virus was released from that Institute, either intentionally or unintentionally? I think people are divided. There are those that are vaccinated, like me, and those that are not. I, for one, am done getting the vaccine. I've been ja…

Make sure you tell everybody that sites Virology institutes to put them as far away from areas where the scientists would like to work as possible.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#768

Post by jacquesm »

tgv wrote: post #622
mike_d wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not allowing foreign scientists in, destroying evidence, arresting journalists, etc. That is par for the course. The Chinese government would have acted this way regardless of if it was a lab leak, natural event, or space aliens.

Although they were hesitant at first, the Chinese government handled the SARS-1 outbreak differently.

The similarities vastly outweigh the differences. The biggest difference between SARS-CoV and COVID-19 is that the latter takes a bit longer before you get ill but you are already contagious. Other than that it's mostly the same old story. Note that if not for SARS-CoV this would have been a lot more serious because that served as a dress rehearsal and put a lot of mechanisms in place as well as suggested screening for Coronaviruses in cases like these.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#769

Post by randomsearch »

raxxorrax wrote: post #320
randomsearch wrote: post #313

I have mixed feelings about this, and I certainly think it’s not as clear cut as HN is converging on, although I share the same instincts. On the one hand, yes, science should be completely open and unhindered by geopolitics. But recall that Trump was in the White House at the time. We are a community of generally highly educated nerds with a strong understanding of science and engineering. We understand that all lab…

Trump is irrelevant here, in fact I believe a lot of people voting for him out of spite because they felt they had been lied to by the other party. You will not improve the situation with more paternalism. That is has degraded to "owning the libs" is a predictable result. Yes, people jump to conclusion, but if you want to build a society of trust, you let some people jump. Others will hit the breaks if no conclusive…

> if you want to build a society of trust, you let some people jump.

If you want to build a society of trust, you need a sane president.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#770

Post by Sparyjerry »

Jack000 wrote: post #264
Sparyjerry wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The story is more about how this was covered up which destroys any faith you had in our scientific leaders who are clearly making decisions base on their political goals, and not on the truth. It is the same way Dr. Fauci admitted to lying to the public about masks not working so that he could achieve his goal of having masks being saved for healthcare professionals. When your leaders are known to be lying to you, es…

I'd agree if there's actual science being suppressed, but it seems to me there is none, just a lot of speculation and finger pointing without evidence on all sides. Despite the lack of solid evidence more than a quarter of Americans already believe in the lab leak theory. In this very article any private expression of uncertainty has been twisted to serve a political agenda. I would say that these scientists' concern…

The science is suppressed because people are and have been fearful to even research and make a claim contrary to the socially allowed claim. There is actually lack of solid evidence of natural evolution of the virus as well and they have yet to find any connection to any animal with the virus, not to mention the viruses spike protein would make it not infectious in bats where the origin was hypothesized. Yet, speaking about natural growth has not resulted in censures or labeling of researchers ass fringe. The issue is not that there isn't solid evidence of a lab leak, it's that there isn't solid evidence that it wasn't a lab leak either. This article goes into detail on why lab leak is still a leading theory: https://bprice.substack.com/p/yes-we-need-to-keep-talking-ab...
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