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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#241

Post by vasco »

You know this effect, when you've been reading the news for years, and finally your favorite source has a story about something you studied or worked on, and you realize how low quality or outright wrong it is? The spell is broken and you realize how little they know about anything they write.

Once government officials and scientists gaslight us about what they think they should, how does one know they wouldn't for anything at all they decide to?

These people have done a huge disservice to society - and the harm in increase of conspiracy theorists is likely helped by their contribution in hiding this information.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#242

Post by eloisius »

mike_d wrote: post #238
partiallypro wrote: post #157

What really raises the most suspicion of the lab leak theory in my mind was how the Chinese government acted towards the rest of the scientific community...well before it was a theory at all. Not allowing foreign scientists in, destroying evidence, arresting journalists, etc. That just screams cover-up, even if there was none (in terms of a lab leak.) Then Western scientists that rely on grants with Chinese ties, etc…

> Not allowing foreign scientists in, destroying evidence, arresting journalists, etc. That is par for the course. The Chinese government would have acted this way regardless of if it was a lab leak, natural event, or space aliens.

That's probably true, but constant suspicious behavior shouldn't normalize behaving suspiciously.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#243

Post by vintermann »

partiallypro wrote: post #157

What really raises the most suspicion of the lab leak theory in my mind was how the Chinese government acted towards the rest of the scientific community...well before it was a theory at all. Not allowing foreign scientists in, destroying evidence, arresting journalists, etc. That just screams cover-up, even if there was none (in terms of a lab leak.) Then Western scientists that rely on grants with Chinese ties, etc…

Thing is, that's what authoritarian organizations seem to do reflexively, whether it's smart or not. Maybe because they have trouble getting reliable information themselves - is a coverup needed, or does it look like no coverup is needed because your subordinates have already covered up to cover their own behinds?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#244

Post by Sparyjerry »

Jack000 wrote: post #158

This article is kind of self defeating - based on the article the scientists expressed uncertainty over the origins of covid, but the title is "Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab" which seems to prove their point exactly? I don't know if this is common knowledge but there's an equal and opposite theory in China that covid came from the us. I just did a search for "covid us" on Baidu and this is the third…

The story is more about how this was covered up which destroys any faith you had in our scientific leaders who are clearly making decisions base on their political goals, and not on the truth. It is the same way Dr. Fauci admitted to lying to the public about masks not working so that he could achieve his goal of having masks being saved for healthcare professionals. When your leaders are known to be lying to you, especially on something much bigger than even 9/11 or pearl harbor, this sparks the kind of outrage that should get those in charge fired. They by their own e-mails and admissions are lying about the science of the biggest event in our lifetime in order to achieve completely separate goals from science. Even if their goals are the most noble in their own eyes to serve as preventing international issues, it is still a disservice to every single scientist that is practicing with the goal of finding the truth. They are trying to act like the parents and that everyone else is the child. It's like those movies when they hide things from the public so as 'not to cause a panic,' but even worse as their hiding of the truth has resulted in censorship of actual science being researched, not to mention censorship on social media platforms.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#245

Post by hirako2000 »

birdyrooster wrote: post #68
dane-pgp wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> warned it could damage “international harmony”. I've never understood the argument that people would want to suppress the (accidental) lab-leak hypothesis out of a desire to protect the image of China. If the lab-leak hypothesis is incorrect, that doesn't change the fact that the virus originated in that country, it just means that the virus emerged from a wet market. I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country…

I would guess it benefits the US too since they had been providing business to the Wuhan lab and failed to vet them effectively. Here is a fun conspiracy theory: what if the US put high risk projects in China hoping that they could obfuscate blame from themselves in case it caused a public health crisis?

It's actually a serious path of investigation that took place last year. And documents actually show some US institution financing at least one lab in China. The motive wasn't to obfuscate blame but more likely to practice the research on a territory having less stringent regulation on this field.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#246

Post by cudgy »

dehrmann wrote: post #199
partiallypro wrote: post #157

What really raises the most suspicion of the lab leak theory in my mind was how the Chinese government acted towards the rest of the scientific community...well before it was a theory at all. Not allowing foreign scientists in, destroying evidence, arresting journalists, etc. That just screams cover-up, even if there was none (in terms of a lab leak.) Then Western scientists that rely on grants with Chinese ties, etc…

It does feel like there hasn't been a proper airing of exactly what gain of function research has been going on (whether or not it led to this particular virus) and how governments have supported it. I suspect it's because, despite being a "hindsight is 2020" moment, a lot of people would be angry, and at a lot of public policy scientists involved in the response.

Plenty of people had the hindsight in 2020 that the lab leak theory was not only plausible but likely; it’s disingenuous to call this “hindsight is 20/20”.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#247

Post by baq »

eloisius wrote: post #242
mike_d wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not allowing foreign scientists in, destroying evidence, arresting journalists, etc. That is par for the course. The Chinese government would have acted this way regardless of if it was a lab leak, natural event, or space aliens.

That's probably true, but constant suspicious behavior shouldn't normalize behaving suspiciously.

If you're approaching this with a western democratic frame of mind, yes.

This is not suspicious behavior in China, as the GP said - it is standard operating procedure.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#248

Post by awb »

riyadparvez wrote: post #179
sudosysgen wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's interesting, because when you ignore the spin on both texts, you find out there is no contradictory information at all. Yet you could that it's nothing but disinformation. You should also note that the article is in the Opinion section, and doesn't actually publish the cables. The cables the is factually claiming is that US officials learnt that the research going on at the lab indicated that there is a high r…

I don't have the time to go through lawyer-speak arguments. The cables from officials regarding WIV safety have been verified. Just because it's on the opinion page doesn't mean it's false. It has way more credibility than some random virologist's claim about WIV safety on Reddit. Period. Just few points: * There's no agreement that this virus hasn't been engineered. Ralph Baric has said that just looking at the DNA…

> Just because it's on the opinion page doesn't mean it's false.

No, but if it’s a red flag that the author has an agenda, or wants to jump to a conclusion without gathering enough evidence required for the news section.

> It has way more credibility than some random virologist's claim about WIV safety on Reddit. Period.

Reddit is the medium of distribution, as it was intended as kind of a springboard to an AMA. Could have been posted on Medium, Substack, etc. For what it’s worth, he is a published virologist: https://scholar.google.com.co/citations?user=8wCwbNUAAAAJ&hl...

I’m not saying he has the right take (I don’t know enough about virology to evaluate his content), just that it was a widely circulated, comprehensive and researched piece of content about the lab leak theory, as were the other two articles.

In a sea of half-thought out opinions and conspiracy theories these 3 articles actually spent incredible amounts of time and published evidence (on both sides of the theory) that can be analyzed and debated in depth.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#249

Post by boomboomsubban »

dane-pgp wrote: post #9
Jimmc414 wrote: post #3

[But a leading scientist told Sir Jeremy that “further debate would do unnecessary harm to science in general and science in China in particular”. Dr Collins, the former director of the US National Institutes of Health, warned it could damage “international harmony”.] The entire foundation of science is based upon empirical observation and asking hypothetical questions. It is discouraging that scientists can make sta…

> warned it could damage “international harmony”. I've never understood the argument that people would want to suppress the (accidental) lab-leak hypothesis out of a desire to protect the image of China. If the lab-leak hypothesis is incorrect, that doesn't change the fact that the virus originated in that country, it just means that the virus emerged from a wet market. I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country…

>I'm not Chinese, but I'd imagine that a country's image is more harmed by accusations of having backwards cultural and food habits (and insufficient government regulation of dangerous markets)

Yeah, there could never be a virus transmitted between Westerners and their food. Some kind of "swine flu" is a ridiculous notion.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#250

Post by RandomBK »

Reason077 wrote: post #40
nradov wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also possible that the Chinese authorities themselves don't even know exactly what happened. Despite their authoritarian surveillance state they aren't omniscient.

It's easy to make sure you don't know what you don't want to know if you don't go looking for it.

As much as I hate it, plausible deniability is a common and effective Standard Operating Procedure for many organizations and governments.

"Two basic rules of government: Never look into anything you don't have to. And never set up an enquiry unless you know in advance what its findings will be." - Sir Humphrey Appleby

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