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Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

telegraph.co.uk

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Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#621

Post by XorNot »

nicoburns wrote: post #512
elihu wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As far as I know, the advice that wearing a mask doesn't protect you very well from getting Covid has held up pretty good; they're a lot better at protecting everyone else from the mask wearer. The logical flaw then was that telling people to just wear masks if they're infected doesn't work very well if highly contagious people don't know they're infected, which turned out to be the case. I can see where it might hav…

I think that's largely true of cloth masks, but well fitted N95 (or similar) masks also protect the wearer.

Droplet transmission works via the eyes as well though. Hospital staff wear an N95, full garments, and a face shield for example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR25COr2FSs - and also depend on the hospital having adequate ventilation. And it "sort of" works most of the time.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#622

Post by tgv »

mike_d wrote: post #238
partiallypro wrote: post #157

What really raises the most suspicion of the lab leak theory in my mind was how the Chinese government acted towards the rest of the scientific community...well before it was a theory at all. Not allowing foreign scientists in, destroying evidence, arresting journalists, etc. That just screams cover-up, even if there was none (in terms of a lab leak.) Then Western scientists that rely on grants with Chinese ties, etc…

> Not allowing foreign scientists in, destroying evidence, arresting journalists, etc. That is par for the course. The Chinese government would have acted this way regardless of if it was a lab leak, natural event, or space aliens.

Although they were hesitant at first, the Chinese government handled the SARS-1 outbreak differently.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#623

Post by nicoburns »

bluediscussy22 wrote: post #538
nicoburns wrote: post #507

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, that's not an unreasonable concern for them to have. Masks running out for healthcare professionals would have been an absolute disaster.

This is exactly the problem. No matter what it is not ok for someone to lie for what they perceive is the greater good, but scientists who we thought we could trust show that's exactly what they do and keep doing. Trust is what our entire society is built upon and the foundation of science.

No matter what. Really? I'm pretty sure we all have a line we wouldn't cross. No good having a society built on a foundation of science if the planet is destroyed by a nuclear war for example.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#624

Post by tim333 »

jokethrowaway wrote: post #425
reallyagain wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

... and if Italy learned the lessons from Asian countries, the initial spike in Italy would not have been so devastating. I think a more fair take would be that most countries did not take COVID19(in particular, the early variants which were much more dangerous) seriously enough until there was a major source of infections in their country, at which point it was obviously too late. There are some exceptions(in partic…

That's not it, the problem with Italy was in the way they were treating them and the fact that Italy is mostly old people (after government policies drove out young peoples for decades). Several Italian doctors criticised the Italian guidelines (in particular about giving corticosteroids) but they were silenced. We also don't know the real numbers of Asian countries, do you trust the numbers given by the CCP?

Most Asian countries are not China. The standards of reporting in places like Taiwan, Thailand and Singapore are probably better than the west.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#625

Post by nicoburns »

XorNot wrote: post #621
nicoburns wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's largely true of cloth masks, but well fitted N95 (or similar) masks also protect the wearer.

Droplet transmission works via the eyes as well though. Hospital staff wear an N95, full garments, and a face shield for example - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR25COr2FSs - and also depend on the hospital having adequate ventilation. And it "sort of" works most of the time.

That still implies that the masks are doing something. Of course it's not 100%. And it's worth noting the hospital staff have much greater exposure than the general public.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#626

Post by tim333 »

MomoXenosaga wrote: post #586
ricardobayes wrote: post #395

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even though I usually like to stay away from political topics on here, but it pains me that a country I (used to) love so much, UK, is spiraling deeper and deeper into a void. So much so I have to believe its leadership no longer acts in favour of the country. For reasons unknown to me, however it is long known Brexit was a wanted scenario for Russian geopolitics, as laid out in their textbook: https://en.wikipedia.o…

Stop blaming the Russians, they can only exploit the rot if it's already there. It reminds me of Germans blaming everything on the Nazis after WW2 conveniently forgetting they voted for them and cheered them on.

I still blame them for exploiting the rot. I wish they could behave like a normal country instead of trying to destabilize most of the world.

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#627

Post by frockington1 »

josteink wrote: post #335
randomsearch wrote: post #313

I have mixed feelings about this, and I certainly think it’s not as clear cut as HN is converging on, although I share the same instincts. On the one hand, yes, science should be completely open and unhindered by geopolitics. But recall that Trump was in the White House at the time. We are a community of generally highly educated nerds with a strong understanding of science and engineering. We understand that all lab…

> On the one hand, yes, science should be completely open and unhindered by geopolitics. > > But recall that Trump was in the White House at the time. And so? Does the name of the current US president alter unrelated facts and findings?

It's almost a religious cause to some people. If _______ is in Office than I must do anything I can to protect or remove them. I think it's a symptom of watching to much cable news and not talking to real people with opposing views. Sadly this spills over into what should be research and fact based studies

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#628

Post by scotty79 »

throw8932894 wrote: post #585
scotty79 wrote: post #548

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let's skip omicron for now. While the original strain was evolving in patient zero it was acquirng various random mutations. The ones that were not beneficial for infecting human cells and thriving in humans didn't survive. Threre were few possibilities. I don't think it could evolve some mutation that would trigger immune system of that person into overdrive causing it to kill all variants of the virus. Very unlikel…

> Let's skip omicron for now. Are you talking about omicron now or original Wuhan virus? Omicron stays mainly in upper respiratory parts. It does not go deep into lungs and body as other variants. That makes it less lethal, not because it is somehow milder. Normal cold is also quite lethal, once it spreads through body, but it never gets a chance. I am happy to accept theory it stayed in single host for several month…

I was talking about original strain as indicated by "let's skip omicron for now".

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#629

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

sumedh wrote: post #501
jacquesm wrote: post #341

If this comment thread is the way the self proclaimed smartest forum on the web deals with articles like this then we're doomed. This article contributes zero actual evidence, is littered with out of context quotes (including of all places the title), doesn't appear to understand the science or the probabilities involved and finally is clearly written with an agenda. It shouldn't have been posted to HN in the first p…

> This article contributes zero actual evidence What evidence has China given to show that the virus jumped from animals?

Why is such evidence needed? The vast majority of diseases we know have not come from a lab leak. Why should this one in particular be assumed to be different?

Re: Scientists believed Covid leaked from Wuhan lab, but feared debate could hurt

#630

Post by frockington1 »

fileeditview wrote: post #302
tunesmith wrote: post #276

I feel like it was impossible to really deal with this debate responsibly, what with the current state of society and social media where everyone has figured out how to weaponize false information, before we as a society have figured out how to really deal with it. Even now it seems like everyone wants to elide the massive differences between "accidental lab leak" and "deliberate lab leak". Even now the common phrase…

Concealing all kinds of information to "protect" the sheep-like citizens is counterproductive and dishonest. An honest discussion is the best way to avoid spreading of false information which will always exist to some degree. However politicians more and more try to avoid all discussion with the voters and just convince them of the rightfulness of their doing. If you don't accept their way you must be wrong, maybe ev…

They've taken it a step further in recent years. Not only should you be shielded, but if you have wrong think then society should be shielded from you. Australia is the most extreme example but you can see the punishment of wrong think creeping up everywhere
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