Beyond Meat’s Beyond Burger life cycle assessment (2018)

Yes, I would. If an animal needs to be killed, this is one of the most humane way to do this. Where I'm from, a lot of farm animals die more painful deaths (nobody can afford electric shockers there).

This is one of the least painful ways to die. If I had to die and wanted a painless death, I'd choose being stunned with electricity and not feeling anything.

> above is obviously very cruel

Argument "it's obvious" works when something is obvious to the person you're talking to. In this case, it's obvious only to you.

And if "it's obvious" is your best argument, it usually means you don't understand very well why you came to that conclusion. Think about it.

> cruelty of the above is only ignored because it's normalised through culture and tradition

Yes, and it's not normal to you because of your culture and tradition. People's views are formed by culture and tradition, yes, there's no discovery here. If you grew up on a farm and saw animals getting slaughtered since your childhood, this idea wouldn't be so shocking to you.

This is a common fallacy. There are at least a couple of studies that show the negative health effects of "vegetarian" Indians after they moved to the US. They were very surprised to find that despite eating the same things as they would in India, their blood work would come back with nutritional deficiencies and contribute to poor overall health. Why? Because they were never vegetarians. In India, food production was very much local for these people, and they were often or always eating vegetables that were picked the same day, in or near the same place they lived, the vegetable plots were not sprayed with pesticides (like they would be in the US), and so they consumed a fairly large amount of animal (insect) flesh as a result. Secondly, a very small minority of the total human population is vegetarian, and for very good reason. If you listen closely, your body will tell you what you need to ingest. We were made to eat everything around us...we should continue to eat everything around us.

>Humans fighting for survival cannot choose things freely.

As someone who's struggled for survival most of my life (and continues to do so), I assure you, I've had plenty of choices. Maybe we're talking about a different type of survival or struggle though.

>You can’t have it both ways the humans fighting for survival cannot afford “well raised” meat.

I grew up in Eastern Europe during the "dark days". We were fighting for survival. We raised pork, chicken, turkey, duck, rabbit in the heart of the city, as did most of our neighboors. Was it "well raised"? Hmmm, probably not by your standards, but it kept us alive when the stores were literally empty. We certainly couldn't afford the nice cuts, we sold those to the professional class (the type you find in this HN thread it seems).

>There are plant sources that provide complete proteins by themselves

I read a lot about nutrition and studies on proteins, microproteins, short and long fibers, etc. I have yet to find a study claiming a plant source can provide the amino acid range necessary to create a complete protein. In fact, I've not read a serious study ever claiming that a plant protein, is at all the same as an animal protein. Same goes for fiber, probably a much more important aspect for mammalian health. A calorie is not a calorie. A protein is not a protein. Anyways, we're getting off track. Meat contains fats in amounts that are critical for human development. Some plants can contain some fats, but once again...a plant fat is not an animal fat. They're not interchangeable.

>You do realize that beef is essentially processed plant materials?

Not sure why all this talk of beef? I brought up meat, and meat seems to equal beef only in the American mind set. Most of my red meat consumption is goat and pork. I raise and grow about 90% of my and my family's food (some years 100%), and am intimately aware of what meat, fungus, plants, microbes are and are not. Let me assure you, meat is not essentially "processed plant materials". If you believe there's something in likeness between a cut of goat meat that's been raised on forest browse and pasture, and American white bread or breakfast cereal, I believe you're mistaken. That's a very reductionist view, and one that is not supported by any scientific research I've read.

I'm hearing a lot of arguments here brought up that seem very similar to the arguments made 50-70 years ago by stock farmers who claimed that cows and pigs can't possibly feel or think anything. Now its my vegan friends claiming that plants can't possibly feel or think anything. I wonder what fallacy humans will come up with in 50 years time.

Cheaper for who? Cheaper how, in terms of monetary cost? I raise most of my vegetables and all of my meat. There's a reason I can't raise all of my vegetables, and it has everything to do with cost. It is vastly more expensive in terms of my time, water, space, soil nutrients to raise my family's vegetables, vs. letting my animals raise themselves on the vegetation that grows naturally. I'd like to add, that I eat many wild plants that modern Americans consider "weeds", and include them in this equation.