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EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

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Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#751

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I just don't think it's fair to conflate the decisions one company makes towards what it thinks are good for engineering or business with every possible outcome of those decisions or how others can exploit them. If the consequences of the decisions a company makes aren't a good metric for whether they are good decisions or not, then what is? We're talking about the largest company on Earth that often has a larger e…

> Oh, I'm aware, as you seem more than willing to throw out anachronistic arguments (like using the Chinese Firewall as an excuse before it was in place), and then immediately try to change the subject when it's clear you're out of your depth. You were correct, and you seem to know much more about history than I do. All I can do is learn, but again, we aren't here to talk about the timeline of the HK protests. You ma…

> You may have a valid point bringing it up with Apple's pull on the world, but that's not the whole picture. That's all I was trying to say.

> You tried to pigeonhole me into some class of person in order to undercut my arguments.

I guess I didn't think it was much of a stretch to assume that someone who conveys the position of "sure, people fighting for their freedoms and journalists evading censorship are valid points -- BUT, that's not the whole picture, remember how bad Windows was?" is unlikely to have had to face these issues. For the record, that wouldn't make you bad, I haven't had to face these issues either. And you're right, for all I know it may very well be the case that you're typing this from a laptop in the desert fighting for water rights or something, but still open minded enough to be just as concerned about the practical business desires of Apple's AppStore. I simply think your post repeatedly skipping the points about Tor gave off a sense of irreverence with regard to them, arguably just as insulting as assuming you haven't had to deal with them. I'm sure you can understand any frustration that might generate, considering you've now admitted you may have not read them.

That being said, I don't think an outsider reading my post would think it is really all that "emotional". Passionate perhaps. Either way, I think you mentioned that that wasn't what we were arguing about. I guess I don't know where the demarcation lines of what we're arguing about are. I'm simply arguing about the effects of the AppStore, and what I believe would be the benefits of other alternatives, to Apple, customers, and yes, the world. As you yourself said, "the whole picture." I began this thread by stating that pricing was not the real problem, so I think I certainly hinted as much. My only hope is that our conversation has perhaps introduced you to concerns about the AppStore beyond the IMO tired discussion of whether 30% is or isn't too high, which is the unfortunate form that this argument usually takes, since it is usually presented as "Apple's interests" vs. "3rd party developers' interests," but that I think is ultimately just a small part of the conversation.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#752
post #724

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurants doesn't sell silverware. And even if they did they wouldn't have 10% of EU as customers. EU puts their anti trust laws for marketplaces at 10% instead of defining it as a monopoly, at that size you have to play fair.

Restaurants sell a bundled experience. The use of their silverware is part of what I buy. You could argue that the restaurant shouldn’t be a gatekeeper. Other parties could let me enjoy a cheaper meal, competing to offer the most discounted silverware. My $10 burger could be $9 if I could rent a paper plate from a third party and eat on the floor. After all, the restaurant shouldn’t abuse it’s monopoly, right?

People who choose to do business by selling a phone or opening a restaurant choose to do so within the context of the rules and regulations that society imposes on businesses of their sort. If they or society don't like the current rules they are free to lobby congress.

There isn't any inherently correct answer just a variety of possible answers with various outlooks for many parties.

I don't think anyone regards a restaurant as a market for silverware and plates where different vendors compete but Apple explicitly clearly runs a market for apps which is a notably different situation from selling burgers.

There is everyone reason to suppose that burgers ought to be regulated differently from software and regulators, lawmakers, and courts aren't robots required to interpret law like code. Reasonable results require both the literal text of the law and common sense.

A lawsuit attempting to force Burgerville to allow third party plate rental would run into the common sense conclusion that the Burgerville isn't presenting plates inc an opportunity to do business with customers they are simply offering them an opportunity to sell n plates to Burgerville for usage in their business.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#753

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once again: real developers may want a lot of things. I've seen developers want bluetooth and location APIs in the browser. And yet, both Apple and Mozilla (note: not just Apple ) consider these APIs harmful as currently presented and specified and haven't found/can't find a way to implement them in a non-harmful way. And these APIs are the most visible. There are many other APIs and features that don't make their wa…

>and Google wants to subsume and replace the web with all things Google and Apple wants that web apps can't compete with native apps, like Apple will make sure a web based streaming app will not be usable. Why location API is not good in browser but microphone and camera is fine?

> and Apple wants that

I love how you keep bashing Apple even if Mozilla fully agrees with Apple on this. Because only Apple bad, bad, bad.

> Why location API is not good in browser but microphone and camera is fine?

Just as camera and mic location access is hidden behind a specific permission dialog in case you didn't notice.

For things like Bluetooth, HID, Serial API etc. both WebKit and Firefox (not just Apple, but both Apple and Mozilla) say that this is not enough.

Moreover, things like HID that Google happily shipped? Well, that specification is so bad that Mozilla devs didn't even understand it: https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/459#is...

Or look, Idle Detection API, currently in trial in Chrome. Firefox just openly says: "WebKit raised issues, we agree with them, here's the issues" https://github.com/mozilla/standards-positions/issues/453

You will also find (if you only cared about this) that standards that Mozilla considers harmful (or at least thinks they have to be deferred) are mostly aligned with Apple's: https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/

But yeah. Only Apple bad.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#754
post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what if you're selling content that you aren't making more than 30% profit on? There's flaws for both flat and percent. Something more nuanced might be required.

What if my revenue won't pay the rent?

My point here is that the percentage is based off the price you're selling at, not the amount you're making. So someone who makes a profit of $0.50 off a $1 sale keeps more after Apple's cut than someone who makes a $0.50 profit off a $3 sale.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#755

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m sorry but your comment is completely divorced from the situation on the ground when it comes to app development. The UI has changed overtime, sometime substantially, and there is now an entirely new language (Swift) you can write your apps in as well as a new design language based on that new language (SwiftUI). On top of that, APIs change version to version of iOS and customers expect things that are now possibl…

And new devices + resolutions! Literally in just the past 5 years we got the bigger phones, notches, etc.

And of course, backend services aren't free and they're an ongoing cost. And apps rarely exist without backend services these days.

I much prefer an inexpensive subscription over ads or other approaches to revenue. Especially considering the consumer market has been sold on this idea that paying $10 for an app, even once, no matter how useful, is way too much money.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#756
post #391

Lots of comments around the line of "ok maybe 30% is too much, but we can all agree they offer a valuable service, so what percentage should they take ?" Uhhhh, not a percentage ? Do you imagine AWS billing you a % of your revenue instead of a given price for a given service ? Give a price to be listed in store, to be reviewed, to be downloaded by a user, ... And let company pay what they owe you. Let them pay throug…

They should take whatever percentage they want, even 100%, as long as they allow alternative ways to get apps onto the iPhone and to charge for in-app purchases. The problem isn’t that their price is too high, it’s that it’s the only game in town. Allow alternatives and then the price they choose can compete with the rest of them. We can see exactly how valuable of a service it really is.

Right - look up:

monopoly - "A monopoly exists when a specific person or enterprise is the only supplier of a particular commodity."

and

monopsony - "The microeconomic theory of monopsony assumes a single entity to have market power over all sellers as the only purchaser of a good or service."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopsony

basically customers can only buy apps from apple AND developers can only sell apps to apple.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#757

Earlier quoted context omitted.

30% has been an industry standard for digital sales for a long time, long before Apple adopted it.

Which is what EU intends to fix.

Fine, so long as they “fix it” for everyone. Whatever rules they come up with must be universally applied. That includes for Sony and Microsoft and the game console online stores.

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#758
post #391

Lots of comments around the line of "ok maybe 30% is too much, but we can all agree they offer a valuable service, so what percentage should they take ?" Uhhhh, not a percentage ? Do you imagine AWS billing you a % of your revenue instead of a given price for a given service ? Give a price to be listed in store, to be reviewed, to be downloaded by a user, ... And let company pay what they owe you. Let them pay throug…

[deleted]

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#759

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are eliding the distinction between rules that can be enforced by the API and rules that can only be enforced by pronouncement. Anyone can do the former. I buy an iPhone because Apple does a decent job of the latter. Now of course if Apple is forced to permit third party stores, they’re going to be forced to make it really easy to get on these stores. Epic, Google and Amazon are going to make sure of that. So thi…

>If Google then makes Google Maps and Gmail exclusive for the iOS Play Store, all bets are off and the biggest reason why I prefer the iPhone is destroyed. And I will be sad and angry that other people wilfully supported its destruction. So is fine if Apple does not put iMessages on other stores or let open source people to create a bridge to talk with iMessages. If there are many people like you say 50% that won't u…

What has iMessage got to do with anything? Don’t blame Apple because Google’s ten attempts to build an Android messaging platform were all dismal failures. Nothing stopped Google from mimicking iMessage and making that the default SMS app.

It’s not a question of who wants Apple to remain the sole gatekeeper of executable binaries, but rather who enjoys the benefits that come from that, even if they don’t explicitly realise it. I contend that it’s far more than 50% — especially because the few people who actually “care” about App Store diversity have already jumped ship to Android. (Or if they haven’t, they have proven that they don’t actually care.)

Re: EU says Apple’s App Store breaks competition rules after Spotify complaint

#760

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is any business entitled to free or low-fee access to a platform that Apple built and maintain? I’m sure many businesses would be perfectly happy to have no access whatsoever to the platform Apple built and maintain (platform meaning the App Store in this context), but if they want to ship on iOS (which is where all the money is), they have no choice.

So Apple is providing these businesses with a platform that has captured hundreds of millions of high-income users. That’s incredibly valuable

Indeed, which is why they took $48bn in revenue for iPhone sales this quarter.

Their argument that they are responsible for Spotify’s iPhone-originating revenue to the tune of a 30% cut is a complete farce. If the iPhone didn’t have third party apps, no-one would buy them.

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