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Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

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Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#751

Post by brightball »

CameronNemo wrote: post #592
brightball wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was similar to the Boeing situation in Charleston, SC. Boeing came in and brought great jobs with them. Then the union reps came in and started acting like everybody was being wronged somehow.

That Charleston plant has terrible quality control compared to the more mature, unionized group in Everett. Some airlines have refused shipments from south Carolina in preference to the Washington group. https://leehamnews.com/2020/09/14/pontifications-boeing-sc-m...

For what it’s worth, I noticed a correlation between bad company news and union disputes that started about 10 years ago with Boeing. I remember visiting Seattle as you drive by the Boeing facility on the way in, my cab driver was telling me how Boeing was going to shut down the plant and move everything to South Carolina.

On that same trip, I was staying at a hotel with a view of city hall from my window (The Artic Club). I heard a bunch of horns blowing and looked out the window to see a line of cabs parked out front honking for about 1 minute before they drove off. News crews were there so I watched the local news that night.

That clip was there but the news made it sound like the drivers had been there all day blockading and honking. It was nothing more than enough time for a news clip (protesting Uber).

At that point, it became very clear to me how unions operate.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#752

Post by jolux »

exabrial wrote: post #259
Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

Show me a well run union in the USA where they successfully compete against union union workers, their industry isn't being shipped overseas, and workers can optionally participate without having wages garnished.

>workers can optionally participate without having wages garnished.

This is the direct purpose of so-called "right-to-work" laws. Unions are required to represent employees regardless of whether or not they pay dues, meaning other members shoulder the costs of collective bargaining. This is called the "free rider" problem and is one of the biggest ones facing unions today. It's also one of the main targets of the PRO Act.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#753

Post by TurkishPoptart »

MattGaiser wrote: post #221
aarongray wrote: post #127

Speaking as someone who lives adjacent to Bessemer but who does not work at Amazon, you need to understand that Bessemer is a dying city, a slum. These were the best paying jobs that many of these workers had had in their entire lives, it is no wonder that a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them.

One person earning $15 Amazon in Bessemer is solidly middle class for that town. https://247wallst.com/special-report/2019/07/22/worst-cities...

Rightly so, but the issue is that the conditions pertaining to work in an Amazon warehouse do not lend themselves to being the kind of work one can do for decades+. People burn out, their legs grow week, and they get no insurance benefits for physical therapy, and that sort of thing. It's just not a sustainable job for most people, sadly.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#754

Post by FredPret »

duckfang wrote: post #254
parliament32 wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, it came from working for a massive union (government, not US) for many years. The downsides are real: hard to fire bad performers, your merits don't matter at all (the guy doing the bare minimum job description gets the same raises as you), wayyy too much focus on seniority (for promotions, vacation selection, etc), and overall just too many rules (for example, "unlimited vacation" works great with my cur…

> hard to fire bad performers In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like. > your merits don't matter at all They don't either in the non-union corporate world either. They pay as little as they can get away with. They'll assign as much work as you can possibly do, and then pil…

> wayyy too much focus on seniority At least that's measurable

We can use seniority, but why not get creative and rank employees by height, moustache density, or digits of pi memorized?

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#755

Post by lotsofpulp »

yeetman21 wrote: post #733
nimbius wrote: post #543

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>a majority of them decided not to bite the hand that was feeding them. How did we as a nation go from the land of the free, a chicken in every pot and a car in every garage, to "beg for scraps or you will starve."

who the fuck is begging for scraps. with 15$ an hour they are living like kings in their hometown, above the median income

No one is living like kings on $15 per hour anywhere in the US. Unless your definition of kings includes lack of retirement security, income security, health security, and working back breaking shift work at odd hours. They will especially be vulnerable in their 50 to 65 years, when they will become unemployable for manual labor work.

They'll be able to put a roof over their head, and not worry about their kids' next meal or maybe even their kid breaking their arm. But they're not going to advance to the next rung of the socioeconomic ladder.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#756

Post by athms »

toby wrote: post #498
yibg wrote: post #477

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everyone points to SAG as an example of a good union. But how many of these are there? If there are dozens of examples of "bad unions" and a single example of a "good union", that doesn't exactly give someone voting to unionize high confidence.

That's because SAG is a guild, not a union, and it works because every known actor is voluntarily a member, so you can't make a movie without agreeing to their rules.

SAG-AFTRA meets the definition of a labor union under federal and state law. It negotiates working conditions, compensation, and benefits with production companies and studios. It is treated in the manner as other labor unions such as IATSE, IBEW, and Teamsters.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#757

Post by [deleted] »

jolux wrote: post #752
exabrial wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Show me a well run union in the USA where they successfully compete against union union workers, their industry isn't being shipped overseas, and workers can optionally participate without having wages garnished.

>workers can optionally participate without having wages garnished. This is the direct purpose of so-called "right-to-work" laws. Unions are required to represent employees regardless of whether or not they pay dues, meaning other members shoulder the costs of collective bargaining. This is called the "free rider" problem and is one of the biggest ones facing unions today. It's also one of the main targets of the PRO…

[deleted]

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#758

Post by mensetmanusman »

claudiawerner wrote: post #694
gruez wrote: post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

...or maybe they just have differences in opinion to you?

That's entirely possible, and very likely. However, that does not do away with rationality completely. For some given situations, with data on the situation and a set of options, we can deduce pretty quickly what is rational to do, what is right to do, and what is in one's interest to do. This is how we (and that includes me and you) are able to criticize people on those grounds all the time. If someone is poor and h…

What you call irrational is often a difference in views and life axioms (which as you probably know can’t be proven).

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#759

Post by ekianjo »

Justsignedup wrote: post #486
flavius29663 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this. - Health care - Worker protections - Required time off - Sick time - Maternity leave etc. Here its $15. And you're on your fucking own. If you compare it to completely underdeveloped or dictatorial economies... Sure I guess its way better. But the US shouldn't be comparing comparing itself to that. Its like saying "This engineer is horrible, but he's no…

> In Europe there are a lot of social benefits that mitigate this.

Europe is not one country. I hope you realize it's hard to generalize.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#760

Post by ekianjo »

tw04 wrote: post #447
flavius29663 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

There are plenty of jobs in western Europe that will pay similar and won't force you to pee in a bottle or your pants. That's ignoring the whole healthcare situation... which I think you're leaving out of the equation. 30 seconds of searching indicates the average grocery store clerk in the UK makes 8.80GPB/hr. Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. https://www.payscale.com/…

> Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker.

Healthcare in the UK is not as good as you may think it is. Unless you love waiting lines for life-threatening conditions.

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