Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#471

Post by ianbutler » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

tw04 wrote: post #447

flavius29663 wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

There are plenty of jobs in western Europe that will pay similar and won't force you to pee in a bottle or your pants. That's ignoring the whole healthcare situation... which I think you're leaving out of the equation. 30 seconds of searching indicates the average grocery store clerk in the UK makes 8.80GPB/hr. Add on healthcare and they're coming out far ahead of an amazon warehouse worker. https://www.payscale.com/…

Amazon Warehouse workers have medical coverage here too. So they're leaps and bounds ahead if you want to go ahead and say that.

Of course the US healthcare system is broken so I know what you're getting at but I don't know that I want Amazon to pay their workers > $15 to subsidize a broken healthcare system for their workers I just want a functional healthcare system and for them to continue to make $15/hr.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#472

Post by stonogo » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:45 PM UTC

flavius29663 wrote: post #246

fartcannon wrote: post #210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a tragic way to frame it. The USA (and all the world governments) need to take care of it's poor people better so they don't have to choose indentured servitude over poverty. Edit: Added the bit about all the world governments

$15 an hour is more than you can get in almost any place in Europe or the world for unskilled labor, what are you talking about?

Have you lived in Alabama on European unskilled-labor wages? I don't think it's a good idea.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#473

Post by strictnein » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

My "original source" is my wife who grew up poor and started working at 14 to pay for things like clothes for school. Every dollar her union took was money she couldn't use to pay for necessities and they never once did a single thing for her or any of her coworkers, no matter how egregious the discrimination or behavior of the store's management. Their union rep would 100% ignore every single complaint. But they always got a cut of her meager paycheck.

Is that a good enough source for you, or does that not count?

I'll never understand the people who think "You have a differing opinion. It must be because you don't know what you're talking about and have just consumed a bunch of propaganda".

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#474

Post by rootsofallevil » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

hintymad wrote: post #372

duckfang wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> hard to fire bad performers In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like. > your merits don't matter at all They don't either in the non-union corporate world either. They pay as little as they can get away with. They'll assign as much work as you can possibly do, and then pil…

> In the jobs that I do, "bad performance" is super subjective and very hard to measure. It's also the common canard to use from the managerial class to get rid of someone they don't like. Are you serious? This line of thinking is exactly why I'm against union. It is really not that hard to tell who are the bad performers. There will be false judgement, but the rate is low. If you want to avoid any false results, wel…

>There will be false positives, but the rate is low

What do you base this on?

My experience is that if you are perceived to be good you can get away with being a low performer for a lot longer than if you are not perceived to be good, I have seen it quite a few times.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#475

Post by hnunionthrow » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:46 PM UTC

tablespoon wrote: post #450

hnunionthrow wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe what GP was alluding to is that if a workplace is unionized, the worker does not have a choice of wanting to be a part of the union or not(in a non right to work state), and so essentially a monopoly. IF the worker wants to work for that employer, he can only do so via the union. No way for the worker to work for the employer and not wanting to do absolutely nothing with the union.

>> By that definition, companies are workplace monopolies. So are you against companies ? If you want to argue you can choose a different company, by the same token you can choose a different union by choosing a different company. > I believe what GP was alluding to is that if a workplace is unionized, the worker does not have a choice of wanting to be a part of the union or not(in a non right to work state), and so…

Which basically reinforces GP's point about it being a monopoly?

> If you don't want to work for the union that's at a particular workplace, you can always choose another workplace.

Or, if unions weren't forced down onto the workers, they might choose to work with the same employer and not deal with the union.

Why can't workers have a choice - whoever sees the union's being a better fit can join the n number of unions operating at a single employer. Whoever wants to remain free from the union can choose not to join, and negotiate with the employer directly.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#476

Post by bena » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

ziml77 wrote: post #453

saas_sam wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My anti-union sentiment arrived from my experience working with a large established union in an industrial plant. The union protected some of the worst, laziest, most unsafe workers I had ever witnessed in any job before or sense. It blew my mind how difficult it was to remove obvious bad apples, and how the best workers were forced to wait in years-long "seniority" queues before they could get promoted. I would get…

> I would get threatened with grievances for trivial acts like carrying a single lightbulb myself without a union worker. That whole thing about requiring union workers to do tasks is stupid. One year I was attending a fan convention and decided to check out the rules for vendors. The convention center used unionized labor so one of the rules was that the vendors were limited to carrying like one case of stuff over t…

The problem always comes down to bad actors.

If I, as a vendor, could have my people do the work of moving and set up and elect not to use the convention center staff, then there's a way to circumvent the convention center staff and fire them all.

You just hire a "vendor" with their own crew to do all the stuff. With no actual work to do, it's justifiable to fire the convention center staff.

If people weren't bastards, we wouldn't need such weird rules. But then again, if people weren't bastards, we wouldn't need unions either.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#477

Post by yibg » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:47 PM UTC

objclxt wrote: post #274

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

From what I can tell, a lot of people in tech are anti blue collar union, but mistakenly assume that blue-collar unions are all unions. For example, just in the replies to your comment people are saying they dislike unions because they protect the incompetent, stifle progression, give preferential treatment purely on seniority, etc. But then go look at Hollywood, with the Screen Actors Guild, the Writers Guild, the P…

Everyone points to SAG as an example of a good union. But how many of these are there? If there are dozens of examples of "bad unions" and a single example of a "good union", that doesn't exactly give someone voting to unionize high confidence.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#478

Post by mariksolo » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #281

Conservative Alabamans fleeced into voting against their own self interests time again? I'm shocked. In all serious, the political theater espoused on these people has eroded their critical thinking, and this will come back to haunt us when there comes a time for serious leadership in the face of a changing climate, and all we have at the helm are grifters protected by their blind sheep majorities.

What a pretentious thing to say.

Maybe your critical thinking is eroded if you refuse to try to understand why people would vote against a union. I'm not saying you have to agree with their decision, but it's ridiculous to assume everyone who disagrees with you is stupid.

Are you an Amazon employee at Bessemer? I'm pretty sure any employee there is more qualified to make a decision about their own lives than you.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#479

Post by anm89 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

Someone1234 wrote: post #132

HN is very consistently anti-union. My question is this: Where did you get information about unions? Because people keep mentioning their "bad reputation" and then start listing off a bunch of "facts" that read like they're bullets straight out of one of those anti-union videos during onboard at several major employers (Walmart, Target, Amazon, etc). So anti-union people exactly where does your information come from?…

Are you questioning the source of a specific piece of data you interpret to be anti-union or you questioning what is the source of peoples opinion on why they are anti union.

If you are questioning the source of a specific piece of data than be clear about what that data is.

If you are asking people to cite a source for a general opinion they personally hold, they don't owe you that.

Re: Amazon workers vote against unionizing in Alabama

#480

Post by resto49 » Fri, Apr 09, 2021, 5:48 PM UTC

whoknew1122 wrote: post #440

bhupy wrote: post #323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The warehouse workers get the same (extremely generous) healthcare as every other Amazon employee (due to ERISA). And even if they didn't, through the Affordable Care Act, someone at that income level can buy a "Gold" plan with low deductibles for $75/month. Obviously for Amazon workers, that's irrelevant. K-12 education is free, and once you factor in-state tuition and FAFSA, university is also basically free for an…

You're conflating FAFSA and Pell Grants. FAFSA is an application for student aid. Pell Grants are the federal government grants given to low-income students. The lifetime limit for Pell Grants is $6,3465. As a low-income student, you may also be eligible for Stafford loans, which are federal subsidized loans. Subsidized meaning that the government pays for any interest accrued while you're a part time student, in you…

What you’re talking about is highly variable based on college choice and location. Federally, the student aid situation isn’t great, but there are many universities that will fully cover all tuition (and sometimes more) if you are under a certain income threshold. See: University of Texas.

You’re also narrowly scoping this to talking about one of the largest and fanciest universities in the state. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other colleges in the area that cost fractions of Bama. And of note, Amazon actually pays for up to 95% of tuition/fees for warehouse workers who choose to pursue associates degrees.

There are certainly societal problems in the US regarding education costs and healthcare, but these are both areas where Amazon is actually providing for its workers way, way above what the federal government provides, and even way above what is normal for most Americans (the health insurance that Amazon warehouse workers get is likely better than the health insurance of most of the people posting in this thread). This is the kind of stuff that needs to be kept in mind to understand why Bessemer residents don’t all see Amazon as evil.