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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#731

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even if the university is free you must pay for food and housing. A one-person apartment in the local halls of residence costs under €500/month here in DE. A room in a shared flat costs a lot less.

Studying abroad in Canada is not nearly as affordable. Tuition alone for international students here is exorbitant ($40,000/year and up). We don’t give any subsidies whatsoever for international students. Instead, we use their tuition fees to subsidize the tuition of our domestic students.

Yeah, Germany must be one of the few still attracting foreign students with no/low fees? I know a lot of courses have teaching in English, landing a job afterwards needs fluent German though.

I wonder how long it will last? UK Universities are now for rich foreigners only. It does mean great options for Chinese food near student halls though.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#732
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Modern” risk boards have Australia with 3 borders to defend including the normal and addingcross-map Argentina to New Zealand and Japan to Philippines (I believe this map comes from a risk computer game)

Have they re-balanced the continental rewards etc? IIRC North America had three borders, but was worth a lot more. However, I have no desire to play Risk again as the dice mechanic is infuriating and it's almost the opposite of a euro-game i.e. Players can get eliminated a long time before the end of the game and the game length can be arbitrarily long. Also, if a player falls too far behind the other players, it's v…

Another major feature of Risk (more or less whatever side rules you're playing with around alliances and so forth) is the role of the cards which pretty much dominate everything else in the endgame.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#733
post #307

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The US military isn't that scary; the evidence to date is that it's ability to destroy counties ends somewhere around Iran's strength. The modelling I've seen is that any US-China war will take place in Asia and China will probably win it unless the US gets a lot of help (always possible). And the US has already been undermined by the likes of China, Russia and India and there isn't a lot they can do about it in the…

> And the US has already been undermined by the likes of China, Russia and India With respect, Russia is being decimated (literally, at least the "big fortresses" that Russia has been gnawing at for months such as Pokrovsk have insane loss rates) by Ukraine's army who are mostly using donated shoddy Soviet-era remainders and decades old Western surplus. If the US were to wage actual war with modern technology against…

> If the US were to wage actual war with modern technology against either Russia or China (whose arms are based off of Soviet designs and stolen American plans), there is no chance in hell either would be able to do much against the US.

https://www.airandspaceforces.com/in-cnas-led-taiwan-wargame...

https://www.csis.org/analysis/first-battle-next-war-wargamin...

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#734
post #627
post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hard disagree. Most useful skill and knowledge is still learned on the job. The "education" is just a selection process. And not only it is a pretty bad one, it is extremely costly.

> Most useful skill and knowledge is still learned on the job. The "education" is just a selection process. It selects for the ability and intrinsic motivation to learn. If you were running a factory or a building construction company, wouldn't you want that in someone you hire? Are there high school dropouts who have the ability and intrinsic motivation? Of course there are. Many drop out due to poverty and family/c…

> It selects for the ability and intrinsic motivation to learn.

You are confusing obedience and willingness to jump through hoops with the motivation to learn. People largely don't need school to learn most things. I would argue that most good learners actually hate school. It would be challenging to self-teach your way to advanced math/physics but that does not concern the vast majority of education. Being motivated to learned is deeply linked to having a reason for learning. I actually wouldn't trust people who were too industrious at school for careerist reasons because it mostly means they are able to tolerate bullshit and rote learn without much pushback on nonsense. STEM is somewhat immune to this because you need at least some form of understanding to solve actual problems but plenty of field have a legitimacy issue resulting from this effect. Notably the medical field is full of hard working idiots and most of the social sciences are infested with ideological parrots. Allegedly it is supposed to select for conscientiousness but since I have faced specialised doctors who schedule 2 interventions when it could be done in one for billing purpose, I would argue it's mostly self-interest or a very perverted form of conscientiousness.

> If you were running a factory or a building construction company, wouldn't you want that in someone you hire?

Someone having a specific diploma doesn't mean he is actually competent in practice. It is just more likely that he isn't absolutely terrible, but that's mostly risk edging. It's funny you take that example because a while ago there was a news in France where an architect had sentenced because he practiced without the required diploma. The guy was 60 and he had designed some big building, even for the public market (his mistake); he had learnt on the job with a mentor and never got around finishing the school curriculum. Le Corbusier famously didn't have any formal architectural training yet seventeen of his projects are on UNESCO list. So I dunno, personally I would hire Le Corbusier regardless of his training if I ever could afford it but the point is that everyone should be free to choose for themselves, not the powers that be of the education establishment.

> Are there high school dropouts who have the ability and intrinsic motivation?

Yes, it doesn't mean anything, just that they got bored with education system or had some other problem. Two of the most valuable companies were founded by drop outs, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates (not high-school, but first year of college is basically the same). If it was just a problem of competence, you could have some sort of certifications for most things, where one could take an exam to prove that he knows what he is doing. But this doesn't happen because it is about enriching a specific class, restricting access to high level jobs to people who will submit to the dominant ideology. Most certifications/exams have a specific education level/diploma as requirement for entry. This is just supply control in favor of the most fortunate. You just cannot reduce ability and motivation to the willingness/capacity to submit to the education system.

> But as an employer would you risk assuming a high school dropout had the same motivation?

That's the whole point of a business. Assume risks to merit the potential payoff. Why do you think the cost of job training should be assumed by the public when they will not get any of the private benefits generated. On top of that, the issue is clearly a disconnect between what is needed in the market and what type of curriculum has been sold in universities so it's clearly not working. In any case it seems insane to me that you are arguing for the isolation of training risks for the benefits of business. What is need is relaxed employment regulations, so that if it doesn't work out, it is not too expensive for business to let go of poor prospect. In an healthy labor market, people would find jobs and the required training much easier. Schools are just a way to offload the cost to the private individual at best or to the public at worst. That's just bad, business have no reasons to exist if they are just to leach of public benefits, might as well go full on communism at this point.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#735
post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. Healthcare costs, and hence health insurance premiums, are the same with or without an employer intermediary. The only difference is with an employer intermediary, the insured gets to pay their premium with pre-tax income. The cost of the health insurance…

Right, the federal tax code is structured to give advantages to employer sponsored health plans. But it doesn't have to be that way. A better approach would be to eliminate those plans and force everyone to purchase individual or family plans through state ACA marketplaces using pre-tax dollars.

The ACA would need to be changed too, it isn't as generous tax-wise as employer based care. The portion of the premium paid by the subscriber is not automatically tax deductible - they have to itemize or meet certain self-employment restrictions. Many don't, so they are paying effectively with after tax dollars. Its one reason why the ACA rate hikes next year are so brutal.

It matters for early retirees (or these days, people forced out of job some years before they wanted to officially retire). Without self-employment income they can't deduct it, and often for similar reasons they can't itemize. They still get the standard deduction of course, but an person on an employer plan gets that + their cost of premiums, automatically.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#736

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When America was truly at the top of the world in the 1950s and 1960s, it was under 10%. A high fraction of college attendance is better correlated with the 21st century decline in America's situation. I think this is a textbook example of correlation not implying causality. The US was awarded a unique competitive advantage with WW2, which allowed it to become the world's hegemon. Much of the reason that the US was…

The U.S. was already the richest country in the world per capita by 1880–even at the peak of the British Empire. Most of its military achievements during the war—building up the world’s largest Navy and airforce from almost nothing within a couple of years—was a product of the industrial economy that already existed before the war. America’s preference for common wisdom over book learning is a strength, not a weaknes…

> be like India where you worship credentials and degrees like religion.

Or China, Japan, Korea…

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#737

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way to see it is to ask why a company should be able to reap the labour benefits of their workers and then force other people to pay for their basic needs?

Should your employer be required to pay for your housing, food, transportation, and clothes? Company towns turned out to be a bad idea.

No, but they should of course pay a salary that can cover all that and more. High salaries and high minimum wages is the right solution.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#738

Higher ed is like employer based health insurance in that they are both weird path dependent historical accidents. People want cheap healthcare, and it got shoehorned into an odd employer fringe benefit system that really is not at all related healthcare in any intrinsic way. People want job training, and it got shoehorned into extra departments at liberal arts universities intended as aristocrat finishing schools. J…

What kind of job training should an engineer have? An engineer's job is to understand very complex systems, and to evolve them, to design, to invent. It's very different from a carpenter's job training, because it requires a much larger width of base knowledge, and much less of what can be acquired by just watching others do their thing, and imitating.

Maybe the study tracks of those going to the industry and those pursuing a scientific career could split earlier. OTOH I personally must say that what I've studied for my master's degree, and even what I researched during my further postgrad studies (even though I did not ultimately go for a PhD) ended up being rather useful for my work in the industry.

It wasn't a sufficient job training though; I sometimes think that nothing is, nothing short of an actual job.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#739
post #440
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU is aggressively neoliberal or liberal-conservative, and that is the reason universities have begun to be more expensive. It's related to austerity, privatization, the aggressive revision of tax codes, and New Public Management. The left has not been popular in the EU since the 70s, which is why this development has gotten increasingly aggresive in the last few decades. You cannot seriously suggest that the EU…

> where public funding programs for research has begun to be funneled to startups instead of research groups. It is darkly amusing that in one post you claim "the left has not been popular since the 70s" whilst admitting that the EU is centrally planning new companies. That's very much the sort of thing the left did in the 1970s. > You cannot seriously suggest that the EU has moved left in any meaningful way ... the…

Well the common theme of leftist is that they are in complete denial of reality.

This is how you get some dude that will argue with a straight face that EU problems absolutely come from neoliberalism when many of the biggest members are closing on 60% public spending to GDP ratio. I just can't imagine the cognitive dissonance at this point.

I wish it would be simple ignorance or plain stupidity because it would mean that would be somewhat solvable. But they are simply and purely lying and they have been doing it for so long that they don't even know where/what reality is anymore. That's a bit sad when you think about it.

At least the "good thing" is that since they are nothing but parasites, eventually they successfully destroy the host system. Then comes the reality check and for a while the parasites get evacuated.

By the way, HN is infested with Marxist types, which is hilarious considering it is supposed to be a forum for a filthy capitalist endeavor. But this is the way of life of the parasite: identify a valuable target and destroy it from the inside. Find another supply, rinse and repeat.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#740
post #483
post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, yes. USA is doing everything but openly support Russia at this point too. It could have been different if Ukraine got proper support, but instead it is being undermined. Europe could do more, but at least most states dont play for Russia (Hungary and Slovakia excepted).

I think we may be at peak Trump though which will limit his power to bail out Putin. The midterms won't go well, the Epstein stuff is embarrassing, the Republicans are starting to get unruly.

It's going to be a very long 12 months though.
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