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Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

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Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#451

Post by AnthonyMouse »

overfeed wrote: post #353
nobodyandproud wrote: post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correlation-only is sloppy analysis. The inheritors and descendants of those that directly created the problem are screaming at the colleges as the problem. But that’s ass backwards: Create the long-term financial opportunity and the college problem will disappear overnight. The correlation is because rational actors will follow the only leads available to make money, survive, and raise a family. Edit: I edited the t…

> The inheritors and descendants of those that directly created the problem are screaming at the colleges as the problem Not to mention rank-and-file American conservatives who see universities as bastions of liberal thought/power, and create threadbare, post-hoc arguments as to why universities have to be dismantled or politically reeducated when partisanship has to be disguised.

> Not to mention rank-and-file American conservatives who see universities as bastions of liberal thought/power

To be fair, they kind of are. In the 20th century there were conservative academics at elite universities and they've since largely been excommunicated as heretics. Which has been a mistake, because then the people who would have agreed with them instead reject academia as a whole and latch on to demagogues, which is so much worse.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#452

Post by tokioyoyo »

rich_sasha wrote: post #165

Meanwhile, China is churning out STEM graduates at breakneck pace. Sure, not every single one is Nobel prize material, but 7 mainland China universities are now in Times' top 100, and another 5 Hong Kong ones as well.

I’m still heavily subscribed to the idea that global access to social media ruined the kids’ expectations. Everything else is downstream effects of unrealized expectations.

In Chinese/Japanese cultures, role models and parental influence on education is still pretty huge. Japan is changing a bit, but I think school systems are still strict enough to keep it up. China is still a beast of its own.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#453

Post by _heimdall »

the_gipsy wrote: post #376
kiba wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America doesn't and shouldn't fight China or Russia alone, so I don't know why we're talking about that. Russia is basically on its way out as a military power. It can't even conquer Ukraine. As for China, you don't fight China alone. What do you think military bases in Japan are for? Anyway, for the world's sake, China shouldn't start a war, but sometime you just can't stop stupid.

America is on a isolation downward spiral. Russia will conquer Ukraine, any other prediction at this point is absurd. See point one, America is alone now, it will take decades to repair the damage.

Are you expecting Ukraine to ultimately buckle and collapse if the war of logistics continues for long enough?

It doesn't seem like Russia has the will, or potentially the capability, to actually conquer Ukraine rather than squat on some of their land and hope to move their border.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#454

Post by tonyedgecombe »

plastic3169 wrote: post #405
roenxi wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military isn't that scary; the evidence to date is that it's ability to destroy counties ends somewhere around Iran's strength. The modelling I've seen is that any US-China war will take place in Asia and China will probably win it unless the US gets a lot of help (always possible). And the US has already been undermined by the likes of China, Russia and India and there isn't a lot they can do about it in the…

Could China attack US? Why would US try to attack China in asia? Not an expert but that feels like losing proposition. I think people confuse proxy wars with wars. US is under no threat of being actually attacked.

You could ask the same question about Japan attacking America but they did do it.

If they think conflict is inevitable then they may well feel they will get an upper hand by moving first.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#455

Post by bildung »

the_gipsy wrote: post #376
kiba wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America doesn't and shouldn't fight China or Russia alone, so I don't know why we're talking about that. Russia is basically on its way out as a military power. It can't even conquer Ukraine. As for China, you don't fight China alone. What do you think military bases in Japan are for? Anyway, for the world's sake, China shouldn't start a war, but sometime you just can't stop stupid.

America is on a isolation downward spiral. Russia will conquer Ukraine, any other prediction at this point is absurd. See point one, America is alone now, it will take decades to repair the damage.

> Russia will conquer Ukraine, any other prediction at this point is absurd.

Are you sure? They are advancing, sure, put look what they paid for to achieve this: 300k dead, 700k wounded, depletion of their souvereign wealth fund, 20%+ inflation, lower oil production and so on.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#456

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

the_gipsy wrote: post #376
kiba wrote: post #334

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America doesn't and shouldn't fight China or Russia alone, so I don't know why we're talking about that. Russia is basically on its way out as a military power. It can't even conquer Ukraine. As for China, you don't fight China alone. What do you think military bases in Japan are for? Anyway, for the world's sake, China shouldn't start a war, but sometime you just can't stop stupid.

America is on a isolation downward spiral. Russia will conquer Ukraine, any other prediction at this point is absurd. See point one, America is alone now, it will take decades to repair the damage.

Russia is on the same spiral, but further ahead. They're going down together. The US has some chance of pulling out of the nose dive, but it's slim.

They may or may not take Europe and Ukraine with them.

China is better placed to survive, but has its own structural issues.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#457

Post by lotsofpulp »

nashashmi wrote: post #122

Total cost of ownership is 4 years x $15k-$25k (for a cheap public school) + missed income from working that same four years ($35k x 4 years). This is equal to $220k +/- $20k of lost money. Now compare this to income differential. Starting grad income is $80k(?). At 4% raise per year compared to 3.5% raise per year for a non-college employee. Over 43 years. My math comes out to the college grad is still making more m…

> Now compare this to income differential. Starting grad income is $80k(?). At 4% raise per year compared to 3.5% raise per year for a non-college employee. Over 43 years.

I would not assume earning that much for 43 years.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#458

Post by nobody9999 »

Izkata wrote: post #253
nobody9999 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem is that any hiring test that blacks and whites pass at different rates, is presumed racist. Never mind that the real issue might be that the blacks went to worse schools and received a worse education. Your first sentence is the result of bigotry against those with "enhanced" melanin content, not the cause. The cause is laid out in your second sentence. Resolve the systemic bigotry (not just against thos…

You're agreeing with them. Keep reading their comment to understand why that didn't matter.

>You're agreeing with them. Keep reading their comment to understand why that didn't matter.

That's as may be, but my point was orthogonal to theirs and not meant as agreement or disagreement.

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#459

Post by watwut »

bildung wrote: post #455
the_gipsy wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America is on a isolation downward spiral. Russia will conquer Ukraine, any other prediction at this point is absurd. See point one, America is alone now, it will take decades to repair the damage.

> Russia will conquer Ukraine, any other prediction at this point is absurd. Are you sure? They are advancing, sure, put look what they paid for to achieve this: 300k dead, 700k wounded, depletion of their souvereign wealth fund, 20%+ inflation, lower oil production and so on.

Unfortunately, yes. USA is doing everything but openly support Russia at this point too. It could have been different if Ukraine got proper support, but instead it is being undermined.

Europe could do more, but at least most states dont play for Russia (Hungary and Slovakia excepted).

Re: Americans no longer see four-year college degrees as worth the cost

#460

Post by zbzdrol »

rayiner wrote: post #161
collinmcnulty wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This view seems to be common, but I think it misses what incredible alchemy comes from making people who come in for “job training” (like I did) spend 4 years in close proximity with research, academic freedom, liberal arts, and at least an attempt at some kind of intellectual idealism separate from economic incentive. It’s peanut butter and chocolate that has served democracy and its people well by having a middle c…

That's historical revisionism. The percentage of American adults over age 25 who have a college degree was only 20% as recently as 1990. When America was truly at the top of the world in the 1950s and 1960s, it was under 10%. A high fraction of college attendance is better correlated with the 21st century decline in America's situation.

> A high fraction of college attendance is better correlated with the 21st century decline in America's situation.

You’re basically arguing that having more uneducated people is better. If that were the case, why did most of the world bend western and American in the latter 20th century culturally?

The problems now are that we have a super-old man and a bunch of others with super-old ideas at the helm, and as a whole none are both wise and caring. I say this as a middle-aged gen-X’r.

The missing ingredient is that no one fucking cares about anyone other than themselves. It’s not a problem that we need to solve by dumbing people down. I’d argue that we’re not educated enough.

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