On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't • Hacker News Board

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#721

Post by solidasparagus » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

sologoub wrote: post #650

solidasparagus wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you read "you can do it" as encouragement to others in the same situation, it's a good thing. When you read it as a justification for why we shouldn't expand the social net, it's pretty terrible. No one is trying to belittle OP's accomplishments, but "I did it and you can too" sounds like a line from an anti-welfare politician so it shouldn't be surprising that many people take issue with it.

OPs context does not touch on safety nets at all, so where are you getting this from? Seems like such thinking is a symptom of our current political BS. Having experienced some pretty crappy times, would you honestly think I’d oppose NOT subjecting others to the same misery?! Of course not, no one should experience these and everyone deserves basic dignity.

It’s just the social context in the US right now and for better or worse, this is often a very US-centric forum. “I pulled myself up by my bootstraps and you can too” is very strongly associated with the political view that people should receive minimal/no help from the government. It’s a talking point by that side and one that is heavily parodied/mocked by the other side. You can’t use a phrase like that without many people seeing a connection - as seen in this comment section.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#722

Post by acdha » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 9:50 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #586

acdha wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US, there are sharp race and class disparities here: if you’re white and pass for at least lower middle class, you are much less likely to have an issue because even unethical landlords know the police and courts will listen to complaints. Go outside of those communities and complaints become more common, often with accounts of a rental company caving immediately after someone demonstrated knowledge of their l…

> caving immediately after someone demonstrated knowledge of their legal rights and lack of fear to contact the justice system. Sounds like the solution. When I was younger, people would try to take advantage of me, but all it takes is a bit of standing up for yourself and they concede.

Yes, but note that your standing to do so varies considerably — I've never had problems doing that as a white man but I know people who declined to involve the city / law enforcement because they had had past bad experiences due to being black, gay, etc. If the landlord threatens to call the cops and you know a history of people like you having been mistreated or simply blown off, you might give up and accept it as another example of the world being unfair to add to many others.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#723

Post by sorisos » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 9:52 PM UTC

varjag wrote: post #105

domano wrote: post #11

Living in a country where there is a better social net in place, but coming from a refugee background, i regularly notice a disconnect with my peers. I do understand their financial worries and sympathize, but only because i am aware of my perspective. Oftentimes i have to remind myself that for others it is actually stressful to think about not being able to comfortably buy a house vs renting it. Meanwhile i worry a…

Seriously, some responses here are mildly bewildering in the extent people can't relate their life experience to actual poverty.

Comforting to here someone else react to these "alienated" commenters. I feel they made this the most depressing HN thread I have ever read.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#724

Post by SomewhatLikely » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 9:53 PM UTC

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #629

sct202 wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my peer group people are focusing on the monthly payments, rather than the loan amount. And mortgage rates are like half what they were in the last housing bubble https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MORTGAGE30US

Leaving them with no room to refinance in future, since rates practically cannot drop further for mortgage lending to be viable. People taking loans in 2021 sure better hope for the continued devaluation of the dollar. It's the only way to keep the debt burden manageable.

Serious question: why would they care about refinancing if their rate is low? Regarding dollar devaluation: I don't there there has been a single year since we abandoned the gold standard where the dollar didn't devalue. And the Fed has explicitly okayed higher inflation going forward.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#725

Post by game_the0ry » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

This comment was a gut punch.

I came from a family that was lower middle class when I was young, then upper middle class, then back to lower class before I graduated college. And I graduated into the 2008 recession.

When I got my current job back in 2017, I finally felt what I though was economic optimism - a sense that the future would be better than the past. What a feeling. This phrase is over-used, but it did feel like a weight off my shoulders.

Then COVID happened...

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#726

Post by acdha » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 9:54 PM UTC

nitrogen wrote: post #672

acdha wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the rest of their post after the part you quoted agrees with your point. So much of the US was designed or redesigned to only work for people who own cars but we still love to talk about them as if they were voluntary expenses ignoring the number of people who are one breakdown or accident away from unemployment & lack of access to healthcare.

What city has public transit that will get you safely and quickly to work at 3AM? What city design will still accomplish all that after your job relocates 15 miles further away?

That was kind of my point: switching to suburban living, heavily subsidizing roads and parking but not having effective transit (or only having it for, say, tourists and sports venues rather than something a commuter could rely on), etc. are all choices which were repeatedly made by planners. We can make other choices and, especially now, climate change is likely to force us to consider at least some of them since even an electric car has a significant lifetime carbon emission contribution disadvantage due to the inherent spatial inefficiency of the medium.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#727

Post by jimbokun » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 10:00 PM UTC

dalbasal wrote: post #303

His point on housing is so important, and its adjacent to a lot of other poverty-related issues. It's one of the reasons advocates for the poor often seem to speak a different language to their opposition. If you live in median-and-above-land, you think of all costs existing on a spectrum. Fancy dinners for $100 on one end. Rice and beans for pennies at the other. This is true for clothes, smartphones, furniture... l…

Cost Disease:

https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost...

Also add education and health care.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#728

Post by waaaaaaat » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 10:02 PM UTC

watertom wrote: post #155

fallingknife wrote: post #6

I'm surprised he doesn't know not to pay rent for the last month and make them use the deposit for it. That's what I always did when I was poor. No way they're gonna evict you in 30 days, especially if they know you're leaving anyway. Also his car cost is way off: https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/cheapest-lease-deals

Maybe in the old days not paying your last month's rent would be an option but not today. Nobody who is truly poor would skip out on the last month rent unless they were desperate, because the landlord will find things wrong with the apartment and will charge you the most or all of the security deposit. Then they will file an unpaid dept claim, turn it over to a debt collection agency and it will hit your credit scor…

upstanding citizen who briefly rented from a slumlord (NYC) here. When it became obvious my landlord wasn't gonna give me my deposit back I just didn't pay the last month's rent. never heard another word about it. I left the place spotless, as I would've regardless of anything related to the deposit.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#729

Post by allarm » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 10:03 PM UTC

throwaway-0987 wrote: post #174

Throwaway because I don't want my co-workers to know. I was poor. My father left home when I was a kid in middle school. My mom worked part time cleaning houses and left us when she found a new husband. I dropped out of high-school in the 9th grade and went to work. Low paying jobs. I lived with my aunt on the bad side of town. Fast-forward 35 years. Today, I make about 200K per year. I got a GED, went to trade schoo…

I think if we just replace “privileged” with “lucky” it would greatly improve the overall tone of the message for many, myself included. I.e. “I was lucky enough to be born in a family of engineers” sounds much better than “privileged” in this context.

Re: On the Experience of Being Poor-Ish, for People Who Aren't

#730

Post by vinger » Mon, Mar 01, 2021, 10:06 PM UTC

xyzzyz wrote: post #570

criticaljudge wrote: post #512

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people quickly tire of it when they have to take care of those lazy people directly. I'm not saying nothing should be done. Just that it is a fallacy to think the government simply has infinite money to spend.

When your friend Steve comes to you to "borrow" $100 (that he'll never return), because he's short on rent, and he blew last of his cash on hookers and booze, it seems pretty reasonable and perfectly morally justified to either refuse outright, or condition your help on requirement that Steve gets a job, and quits his hookers and booze habit. Certainly, nobody would ever suggest that you have any obligation to enable…

If society agrees to give $100 to the military you have no say in how they spend it.

If society agrees to give $100 to Steve then you have no say in how that move is spent.

If you think it's better not to give to Steve anything and you lobby to change the law and are successful. When Andre is affected by this change he decides to make up the difference by breaking into your place and killing you. At least Steve doesn't have his hookers right?