On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness • Hacker News Board

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#711

Post by johnnyanmac » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:00 PM UTC

rc-1140 wrote: post #279

One thing about the post in its entirety, not just the content, that really stood out to me was that there was a commenter "kayla" who behaved exactly in the manner that the author outlined when talking about the "feminist" and "MRA" subgroups. They immediately jumped onto the aggressor's bandwagon, saying that the lowercase-i incels were simply too lazy to fix their problems even though extremely-generalized and dis…

perhaps troubling, but entirely unsurprising. Societal learnings won't necessarily be undone in one article, no matter how insightful. Especially when a group in question is lambasted on the internet as one actively regressing civil rights and social liberties

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#712

Post by amznthrowaway5 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:00 PM UTC

Balgair wrote: post #455

spoonjim wrote: post #140

Essentially, what we have right now in the sexual marketplace echoes what we have in the economy... a lot of the sex is being had by a small fraction of the people. The need for sex is perhaps as high as the need for money but nobody talks about this crushing inequality, perhaps because there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. The problem is worse for men since a man needs a certain set of skills and…

> Essentially, what we have right now in the sexual marketplace echoes what we have in the economy... a lot of the sex is being had by a small fraction of the people. (Emphasis mine) Possibly. DNA analysis shows that for every 17 human females that reproduced, one male reproduced. Meaning that quite high rates of polygamy, rape, or other unbalancing factors were the norm in human history. http://awakeningtimes.com/80…

There was some mating skew no doubt. But that number is total nonsense and the study does not show that.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#713

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:01 PM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #423

waythro123123 wrote: post #52

My pet theory is that the developed or post-industrialized world is becoming increasingly two-classed. I have had the privilege of having a decent job (being so-called "economically desirable") and decent education and was able to find someone who I think loves me for who I am, for some definition of "I am". That being said, the "incel" problem concerns me. I think the existence of this entire class of individuals sh…

> Her response was that they had so much "male privilege" and that they have no excuse for underperforming. That, thus, they should still be _ahead_ of women, presumably, despite the goal being that they... shouldn't be. They need to pull themselves up from their bootstraps, and "man up", but we also must remember that "man up" is a problematic term that is part of "toxic masculinity". That made absolutely no sense.

My reading of it is that the commenter is interspersing things his partner said during that discussion with conflicting opinions that she expressed at other times. It’s unlikely that she stated all of these things in sequence.

I think it’s normal for people to hold some contradictory views. Our web of mental concepts may have a lot of nodes in it that resemble one another, but with different neighbors, that developed at different times in different contexts. Duplicate records lead to poor consistency!

It seems like the commenter, upon reflection, noticed this inconsistency and was bothered by it. But he has the EQ to realize that starting an argument over it is unproductive, so posted here under a throwaway to get some catharsis.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#714

Post by gehatare » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:02 PM UTC

serverholic wrote: post #648

colmvp wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some of my best friends are women and have been there for me in ways that my other guy friends certainly haven't during bouts of loneliness during times of lockdowns. But perhaps it is different when it comes to partners.

Assuming you're a straight male, I dare you to cry in front of your girlfriend/wife.

I've done that with multiple girlfriends and it never was a problem? How do you expect them to react?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#715

Post by stevenicr » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:03 PM UTC

maest wrote: post #601

graphtrader wrote: post #580

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't think people value sexual compatibility enough. If you aren't compatible sexually then you are not compatible. I have been married twice. My first wife was practically my "soul mate", we had the same taste in everything. We were best buds, everything was perfect besides our sex life sucked. It always led to conflict and problems. My wife now we have almost nothing in common when it comes to taste, art, m…

I think some imortant parameters are: age when you started and ended first marriage, age when you started second marriage, current age. I suspect sexual compatibility lowers in importance as people age.

I had thought similar for some years / decades.. the past few years my views on older people having sex / not / alot etc have changed quite a bit.

Certainly there are some old couples that stay together without good sex for different reasons, religios beliefs and such...

But if you are an intimate couple - that includes sex. If you are not having sex you are just roomates / friends - and there is nothing wrong with that.

I know a few different people in thier 70's right now having really great sex because they have found new partners, and because it's great they are having a lot of it.

So it could be less important if both people's only goals are stability or other goals - however we are seeing from reports in retirement communities and nursing homes that whether it is the loss of partner through death or divorce or just ageing single into a new community of options - that people are indeed searching for sexual compatibility as they age - often times with many more partners later in life than mid-life.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#716

Post by letonmorri » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:04 PM UTC

standardUser wrote: post #607

volkk wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP means that the top 20% of men are getting all of the attention in the dating market. it's a well known fact at this point. i think the numbers largely come from dating apps but they reflect real life pretty well (from my anecdotal experience)

This would imply that the "bottom" 80% of men are not finding partners. When we look around at the world, either anecdotally or statistically, do we see 80% of men without partners? Not even close.

It seems about right if you are talking about dating apps.

- https://techcrunch.com/2009/11/18/okcupid-inbox-attractive/ - https://quillette.com/2019/03/12/attraction-inequality-and-t...

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#717

Post by robocat » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:04 PM UTC

supernovae wrote: post #668

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #595

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sounds like we need to address depression and anxiety with something other than drugs.

Shorter work weeks, universal healthcare, affordable housing, open borders, freedom to travel, less consumerism, more time for friends/family...

I thought countries that have most of those things seem to have as many problems with depression and anxiety?

And countries without those things perhaps don't?

Which are the correlations that actually matter?

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#718

Post by slg » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:04 PM UTC

PeterisP wrote: post #646

slg wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, people who are against "equity" call it "equality of outcome" because it sounds more Orwellian/communistic/whatever your dystopian descriptor of choice is. Very few people actually advocate for "equality of outcome". Equity is closer to "equality of opportunity" than "equality of outcome". "Equality" is neither of those things because it doesn't correct for differences in opportunity and therefore o…

> Very few people actually advocate for "equality of outcome" There are certainly many people advocating for explicit "equality of outcome" policies e.g. various quota systems that mandate granting unequal opportunities for otherwise equally suitable applicants in order to achieve an equitable outcome for various groups (e.g. gender, ethnicity, caste, etc) the applicants represent.

>various quota systems that mandate granting unequal opportunities for otherwise equally suitable applicants in order to achieve an equitable outcome for various groups

This is the problem in your definitions. Are you talking about equity of outcome at the individual or group level? You are mixing the two there.

No on is advocating equity of outcome at the individual level. People are using equity of outcome at a group level as a measure of equity of opportunity at the individual level because there is an assumption that when two large groups of people have similar opportunities they will have similar normally distributed results at the individual level. If you argue otherwise, you quickly start getting into areas of bigotry by saying that a certain group is not willing or capable to make the most of opportunity.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#719

Post by amznthrowaway5 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:05 PM UTC

colmvp wrote: post #667

standardUser wrote: post #472

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I strongly disagree, but my evidence is all anecdotal. I'm not saying that literally every guy can find a partner, but I have seen all manner of men end up with perfectly lovely partners (and/or occasional sex partners). And when I say "all manner" I mean dumb guys, ugly guys, short guys, guys with terrible hygiene. The spectrum of men I have personally witnessed have success with women is vast and diverse and even k…

As a short guy, I chuckled at being grouped with dumb guys, and guys with terrible hygiene lol You're not wrong though, both men and women love to make fun of a short guys.

What if someone did the same thing to black women? It seems only some "standards" are acceptable.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#720

Post by xiphias2 » Tue, May 04, 2021, 11:06 PM UTC

ceilingcorner wrote: post #368

toyg wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, that seems something of a dystopian solution to the problem It's the one with the fewer externalities. Forcing an unhappy couple to stay together can traumatize children, produce widespread violence (another one of those things that were kinda just "accepted" in the past), and even end up in murder. It would be much more dystopian to force women into distributing sex equally, surely?

These aren’t either or situations. Acting as if the only options are an abusive marriage or prostitution is really misleading. There are plenty of ways to incentivize monogamy, disincentivize divorce, and yet still allow for individual freedom. Why haven’t these been tested? I’ll suggest because like all movements, the gender equality movement has been driven largely by extremist activists (who gain social power) and…

> Why haven’t these been tested?

They were tested and perfected a hundred thousand years ago when humans were living in tribes. In a tribe shaming people for being polygamous was part of the system to keep some checks and balances. With people moving to cities and dating online, those checks and balances are suppressed, and the market balance shifted towards polygamy (few high value man date many women).