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On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

residentcontrarian.substack.com

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Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#451

Post by kreft »

landryraccoon wrote: post #147
scarmig wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. This is a bit silly: either it's trivially true but irrelevant, if the claim is that there exist people who can live happy lives without (sexual) relationships; or it's flatly false, if the claim is that everyone can be equally happy without relationships as they would be with them. Relationships bring significant happiness. People who…

Man this thread sure must be depressing if you're single. Single? That's your problem, that your single. Go get a relationship and be happy! Way to dogpile on people when they're down. I say enjoy being single. If a relationship happens, good for you, but don't listen to people that say you're damaged / worse off / going down the drain because you're single. They're just jealous you can travel and play video games wh…

> They're just jealous you can travel and play video games whenever you want. =)

To infantilize people like this is more hurtful really. We both know your allotted time with a Nintendo isn't a source of envy. It's a problem, it needs addressing. If you've successfully overridden one of your most primal biological instincts then good for you, you don't need to read all this. However, I suspect most people who say they are just as happy single are not entirely truthful (to themselves).

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#452

Post by Hitton »

haskellandchill wrote: post #127

I'm an incel. It doesn't have to be sexist. I don't have any specific feelings towards women. I just know I don't get an ROI on investing in dating. So I just invest in my self for my self and allow myself one sexual interaction a month through paying for it like a service. I'm available for dating or relationships but have no expectations. It's healthy enough.

>I just know I don't get an ROI on investing in dating.

Nothing wrong with that, but that means it's voluntary. And the latter part means that it isn't even celibate.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#453

Post by thelean12 »

dnissley wrote: post #429
thelean12 wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if you can't get women, it's entirely your fault I'm curious, and this will probably be too curt but I am honestly trying to figure it out: Whose fault is it? Because incels believe it's the women's fault, and this message is the opposite. It doesn't seem productive to tell them that it's society's fault or some other external thing. What are they supposed to do about that? Most men that I know, including myself, f…

I think the answer would go along the same lines as answering the question "whose fault is it that you can't get a job?" when aimed at an identity category such as women or minorities. Basically: society has failed them in some form or other.

I'm not convinced it's the same. When talking about dating, there are a bunch of stuff that you can do that boils down to "make yourself a better person." See: my list above. It's obviously not guaranteed, and many are more genetically gifted than others, but it seems way more manageable of a task than your example.

You can't expect women to work on having more of a penis.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#454

Post by newsat13 »

silicon2401 wrote: post #310
landryraccoon wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man this thread sure must be depressing if you're single. Single? That's your problem, that your single. Go get a relationship and be happy! Way to dogpile on people when they're down. I say enjoy being single. If a relationship happens, good for you, but don't listen to people that say you're damaged / worse off / going down the drain because you're single. They're just jealous you can travel and play video games wh…

> Way to dogpile on people when they're down. > They're just jealous you can travel and play video games whenever you want. =) This comment comes off defensive and hypocritical to me, rather than contributing to the conversation. You're basically saying we shouldn't talk about good things if some people don't have those good things; and also screw people with good things because they're actually jealous of the have-n…

This comment sounds so dismissive. And yet the first thing noted as benefits of a relationship is "cheaper". That's truly sad.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#455

Post by Balgair »

spoonjim wrote: post #140

Essentially, what we have right now in the sexual marketplace echoes what we have in the economy... a lot of the sex is being had by a small fraction of the people. The need for sex is perhaps as high as the need for money but nobody talks about this crushing inequality, perhaps because there is no practical way to “tax and redistribute” sex. The problem is worse for men since a man needs a certain set of skills and…

> Essentially, what we have right now in the sexual marketplace echoes what we have in the economy... a lot of the sex is being had by a small fraction of the people.

(Emphasis mine)

Possibly. DNA analysis shows that for every 17 human females that reproduced, one male reproduced. Meaning that quite high rates of polygamy, rape, or other unbalancing factors were the norm in human history.

http://awakeningtimes.com/8000-years-ago-17-women-reproduced...

http://econintersect.com/pages/analysis/analysis.php?post=20... Figure 5

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#456

Post by standardUser »

didibus wrote: post #255

> In that sense at least we are all feminists and men’s rights activists, but nearly 100% of everyone reading this would have felt some emotional recoil from being called at least one of those two things. Why? I guess I fall outside that range. Do most people actually find themselves having emotional recoil here? I personally feel very much a pro-women and pro-men rights supporter. Do most people not feel like that?…

I can't help but react negatively to "Men's Rights" the same way I react negatively to "White Power" or "Corporate Welfare".

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#457

Post by EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK »

thelean12 wrote: post #327
tachyonbeam wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one bitter truth about life: (almost) everyone needs some amount of physical intimacy to be happy, but it's not something anyone is entitled to. Those of us who have access to that are privileged. I agree with the author though. IMO the existence of so many "incels" is some expression of a real societal problem. Many young men are suffering, and we don't acknowledge their suffering as genuine. We just tell the…

> if you can't get women, it's entirely your fault I'm curious, and this will probably be too curt but I am honestly trying to figure it out: Whose fault is it? Because incels believe it's the women's fault, and this message is the opposite. It doesn't seem productive to tell them that it's society's fault or some other external thing. What are they supposed to do about that? Most men that I know, including myself, f…

It's often fault of a psychological trauma suffered in childhood. Sexual abuse, for example. So counseling is one thing that society could provide to such men. Sexual therapy treatments have been used successfully in some countries.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#458

Post by rafaelero »

mancerayder wrote: post #256
benlivengood wrote: post #4

> I got absurdly lucky when I found my wife, but I spent every day without her more or less miserable. It’s arguable she’s the only reason I’m able to be happy. I imagine some of these men are similar to me in the loneliness and not as lucky in finding someone, and it’s impossible for me to not feel something. This is basically a red flag for any relationship. If the only thing making or allowing a person to be happy…

>I think that's the strongest criticism of incels as well; having a romantic and sexual relationship is not a requirement for a happy life. Strongly disagree, unless you have low testosterone. Nowhere on Earth except in possibly some religious circles do people mentally push away and control to the point of elimination from awareness their sexual desires and not suffer for it in some form. You don't need to be a Freu…

I mean, if you apply this same reasoning, then "eating this big mac is extremely necessary unless you have one of these weird genes that makes you not crave these type of foods" becomes also a valid argument. It's not about what humans feel they need, it's about what they can live without without tearing their lives apart.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#459

Post by standardUser »

navait wrote: post #137

Is there any real policy options we can pursue? We can't assign mandatory girlfriends, and even if we could, they may not find it was what they wanted. I can help the poor and destitute much more effectively than I can wealthy people with vague psychological issues, and they also have more immediate needs. We all have limited time on our hands, and in terms of effectiveness, working with incels seems like something t…

There are policy options. I suggested in a comment: Decriminalize sex work, provide universal mental health coverage and implement a more expansive version of sex education in schools.

Re: On incels, dead bedrooms and the hard problems of loneliness

#460

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

jfengel wrote: post #428
scarmig wrote: post #348

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue is when people conflate "there's no obligation on any woman to listen to you" with "expression of frustration in a public forum is a character flaw worthy of criticism," or when people conflate "blames women for its problems" with "criticizes toxic gender norms enforced on men." Imagine a woman who is frustrated because her partner doesn't do any chores or give any indication he respects her. She complains…

Toxic gender norms hurt both men and women, but we're only willing to consider toxic gender norms that hurt women as a politicized issue. "Patriarchy hurts men" is a feminist slogan. It gets hundreds of thousands of hits on Google. The front page is full of lefty think-pieces saying that we need to consider toxic gender norms hurt men. https://www.google.com/search?q=patriarchy+harms+men The fact that it needs to be…

The vast majority of "patriarchy hurts men" discussions I've seen, including the Buzzfeed and Washington Post articles I spot checked at the top of this search, have been about how the men reading the article need to fix their bad behavior. Buzzfeed calls for me to learn "specific strategies to end gender violence" so that I won't "engage in everyday sexist behaviours"; Wapo suggests "Giving up a small slice of privilege in exchange for a longer (and happier) life".
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