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EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

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Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#701

Post by vidarh »

christophilus wrote: post #228
crote wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The law explicitly states that it has to be reviewed every couple of years to determine whether USB-C it is still the best choice, or there has been sufficient technological progress to warrant a switch to a newer standard. The fear for a "lock-in" is completely unfounded, as the EU previously quasi-mandated Micro USB and switching to USB-C was no issue whatsoever. Besides, nothing is stopping manufacturers from incl…

But if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies that may block its adoption and thus mean most of that work was money and time wasted. This kind of thing may tilt the risk / reward of research towards the riskier end of the spectrum. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing— just that it’s not without cons…

There is already very much reduced need to invent a better plug that isn't backwards compatible because USB-C is extremely flexible in that you can negotiate what will go over the pins.

E.g. USB power delivery has already been ramped up several times to the point where it can deliver up to 240W (USDB PD 3.1)

That doesn't require any regulatory body to agree, just the USB Implementers Forum.

While there may well eventually be a reason to upgrade the actual plug, there should be resistance to that to encourage people to try to find ways to make it work that's backwards compatible with current equipment first.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#702

Post by dagmx »

soneil wrote: post #491
hn92726819 wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> do you think Apple intended to stick with Lightning forever? What?? Of course they did. Why do you think they are even considering USBC? Apple has zero incentive to use a common cable format; I'm sure they rake in money with their proprietary apple-only connectors. Look at magsafe. Changed it twice so everyone had to get a whole new set of chargers. Sure, they changed it to C now, but I'm guessing that's just becau…

There's rumours Apple made a 10-year commitment to lightning, which wouldn't be at all unusual - especially giving all the moaning when they switched from 30-pin to lightning. I find it hard to believe that cables are a core part of their business. It just gets thrown out every chance it gets. They put usb-c on their laptops, everyone said it was to sell dongles. They didn't put usb-c on the phones, everyone said it…

It’s not rumours. The introduction for the lightning port said it was a standard for the next ten years during the keynote.

I don’t think they necessarily meant it that literally, but this year will be year 11. So if a switch happens this year, it’ll be exactly fulfilling that public commitment

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#703

Post by Dylan16807 »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #641
revelio wrote: post #434

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes ... exactly ... they reintroduced a non-standard connector because people preferred it to the standard one. See the problem?

They reintroduced the non-standard connector because usb-c limits were slowing down the charging time. Its not just a preference thing, its a functionality thing. Macbooks charge faster with magsafe. Magsafe delivers 140 watts compared to 100 watts for usb-c. That difference is not insignificant for people who aren't plugged in all day.

Magsafe 3 uses USB-C on the other end of the cable. It uses the support for up to 240 watts that the USB forum announced a few months before Magsafe 3 was announced.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#704

Post by Pamar »

McDyver wrote: post #256
christophilus wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But if the whole world adopted this kind of regulatory stance, there would be much less incentive to invent that better cable because you now have huge regulatory bodies that may block its adoption and thus mean most of that work was money and time wasted. This kind of thing may tilt the risk / reward of research towards the riskier end of the spectrum. I’m not saying it’s a bad thing— just that it’s not without cons…

I feel this argument is like saying there's no point in developing free and open software because there are already other pieces of software that were adopted, and are de facto standard. In my opinion, this actually promotes the development of technology to be shared for the benefit of everyone, not just to help with vendor lock-in.

If you are talking of MS Office... I am afraid that yes, the various free/open alternatives (especially to Word) were a wasted effort (of course, it could be that MS made their products more affordable in part because they were worried by the possibility that Open Office etc. could become "good enough" to make people switch, but honestly, this March I got a perfectly legal copy of Office for Mac for less than 75 USD... and I bought it because I was asked to prepare some slide for a professional group and I preferred to buy the whole packet out of my pocket than risking issues with "export to Powerpoint" from Keynote).

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#705

Post by bonzini »

drexlspivey wrote: post #578
pipodeclown wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What he means is, having a proprietary connector means they can milk accessory makers with licensing fees.

Why do the new ipads have USB-C then?

Because they want you to be able to use external USB docking stations. Lightning doesn't interoperate with external displays.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#706

Post by freehorse »

crazygringo wrote: post #402

I'm confused. Either Apple is following the letter of the law or it isn't. I don't know what a "warning" from EU Industry Commissioner Thierry Breton is supposed to mean. Either the law says USB-C charging is required but doesn't say anything about charging speeds, or it does say something about charging speeds. In any case, Apple has a lot of lawyers and presumably they're following the law as written . I would assu…

Apple tries to find loopholes so that it still sells its own cables/chargers under the new law, by artificially restricting non apple-certified cables to how fast the can charge or transfer data. The "spirit of the law" was that you should be able to reuse cables instead of having to buy new ones for each new device. But if a company restricts features to its own cables (without any reason for example that a normal usb3 cable should not tranfer usb3 speeds) then they force customers to buy extra cables from them for their new devices. Which is what contradicts "the spirit of the law".

I am not a legal person but I can imagine several ways that this apple's practice can be made to fail. Also I do not see how anybody (apart from apple) would want this or find it reasonable to do.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#707

Post by xorcist »

Auracle wrote: post #501
skeletal88 wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This happened because the EU forced them to agree on a single charger/cable standard and it happened to be micro-usb for a while. Before this every mobile manufacturer had their own version of a charging AND data cable, separately..

The EU absolutely did not force micro-usb. It was a strongly worded suggestion at a time when it seems we were already moving that way.

They absolutely did. "Sort it out or we will make a law" is what enforcement looks like.

Before that, everyone had their own variant of the barrel plug. A few crappy low price vendors just used micro usb instead, since they couldn't possibly have a proprietary moat to speak of anyway.

It's one of the examples where consumer legislation worked.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#708

Post by robertlagrant »

viraptor wrote: post #423
revelio wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In other words the regulatory bodies decide. They might, if they feel like it, ask some people who actually know something in the process of making that decision, but that doesn't mean they'll listen or care. Why are you denying this basic reality?

If you have a jaded view of the EU out to get you by (checking notes) ignoring the directive and not consulting with the experts so that they can force you to use a specific connector even when better options get created... Sure, I don't think we see the same reality.

The EU doesn't need to be out to get anyone for this to be true. Why make up an argument and argue against it, instead of reading and thinking before replying?

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#709

Post by robertlagrant »

xorcist wrote: post #707
Auracle wrote: post #501

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The EU absolutely did not force micro-usb. It was a strongly worded suggestion at a time when it seems we were already moving that way.

They absolutely did. "Sort it out or we will make a law" is what enforcement looks like. Before that, everyone had their own variant of the barrel plug. A few crappy low price vendors just used micro usb instead, since they couldn't possibly have a proprietary moat to speak of anyway. It's one of the examples where consumer legislation worked.

That wasn't legislation or enforcement.

Re: EU sends Apple stark warning over USB-C charging on new iPhones

#710

Post by arnvald »

_trackno5 wrote: post #561
arnvald wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think there are still some potential obstacles like diagnostic devices (how to diagnose phone that doesn't boot without a cable?) and pricing - adding magsafe by default would probably raise costs

> adding magsafe by default would probably raise costs What do you mean by this? All iPhone models currently sold by Apple (except for the SE model) have magsafe and wireless charging by default. They could also just have a non-charging Lightning port on the phones and say screw you to the EU :P

Oh, my mistake, I thought it was an additional accessory. Thanks for correcting me!
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