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The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

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Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#71
post #60
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. Are you claiming that the populations of all countries score the same on IQ tests? Are you saying that it's all explained by culture and that all that culture goes away when someone immigrates? Do you believe in creationism? What? While I'm sure that your conviction is sincere, I doubt it's based on any actual evidence. Instead it's an expression of how you'd like the world to be.

"I'm confused." You got that part right, at least.

From the guidelines:

  http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
"When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3." "

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#72
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be just my personal prejudice but I'm a little scared of China; mainly because of the fact that its own citizens don't enjoy freedom of expression, God knows what might happen to a foreign national. What's your experience? Are my fears unfounded?

> I'm a little scared of China How can you say this when the Bush administration has just spent the past 8 years systematically dismantling your privacy rights and running a global kidnapping and torture network? Meanwhile, the US imprisons more of its population than any other nation on earth, especially for non-violent crimes. It doesn't scare you that you can be thrown in jail for years because you like to smoke a…

I think the vast majority of Americans didn't notice any restriction on what they want to do in the 8 years of the Bush administration. The biggest impact for most was probably added hassle when flying or opening a bank account, but even that seems minimal in retrospect. If there'd been a terrorist attack or two every year, it might have gotten much worse, but it turns out that there are, to a first approximation, no terrorists who have the ability and desire to attack US soil.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#73
post #41
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you used words like "cultures that do not value education", you wouldn't come off as a racist/IQist as much.

Okay, sure. But then I'd have to think of an explanation for why adopted Asian-Americans do just as well (or better) academically than Asian-Americans raised by their own parents. Culture can't explain that. Maybe you could help me out?

You're looking to compare the psychology of adopted Asian-Americans and un-adopted Asian-Americans? This is definitely a place where correlation can be a million things other than causation. I'm no social scientist, but two things come to mind right away:

Consider the financial situation of a household which adopts children - adoption is a very expensive and rigorous process, so adopted children of any nationality are going to be in a family which is financially secure and meets some kind of standard psychologically and legally. Not so for many Asian immigrants - I would imagine that on average, Asian immigrants aren't as well off as foster parents. Culturally, their environment will be quite different.

Cultural identities also come into play - adopted or not, Asian children will identify themselves as "Asian", just as Jewish children identify themselves as "Jewish", Russian children will identify themselves as "Russian", and African American children identify themselves as "Black".

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#74
post #33
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any valid reasons as to why you would still want to move to the US?

Don't laugh, but it's a kind of patriotism. I love the country. It's beautiful. I like its philosophy. American values resonate close to my values. In the years I lived there I grew to think of it as my home much more than the country I was born in. I could see calling myself American. When I went there I was received well. I was helped. I made friends. Now I think I can help in return. I would like to contribute, es…

I know exactly what you mean. After 7 years in the H1B green card queue I finally got mine, but it was an agonizing wait. Like you I love the US, I feel more at home here than I do in the UK, but after close to a decade of delays the pressure of never knowing if I could settle was taking a toll. I wouldn't mind clear rules, but the sheer arbitrary illogical complexity and undefined duration of the process made it a nightmare.

A month after my GC came through, I quit my job and I'm now burning through my savings trying to get a startup off the ground, pumping money into the economy.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#75
post #41
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you used words like "cultures that do not value education", you wouldn't come off as a racist/IQist as much.

Okay, sure. But then I'd have to think of an explanation for why adopted Asian-Americans do just as well (or better) academically than Asian-Americans raised by their own parents. Culture can't explain that. Maybe you could help me out?

You're looking to compare the psychology of adopted Asian-Americans and un-adopted Asian-Americans? This is definitely a place where correlation can be a million things other than causation. I'm no social scientist, but two things come to mind right away:

Consider the financial situation of a household which adopts children - adoption is a very expensive and rigorous process, so adopted children of any nationality are going to be in a family which is financially secure and meets some kind of standard psychologically and legally. Not so for many Asian immigrants - I would imagine that on average, Asian immigrants aren't as well off as foster parents. Culturally, their environment will be quite different.

Cultural identities also come into play - adopted or not, Asian children will identify themselves as "Asian", just as Jewish children identify themselves as "Jewish", Russian children will identify themselves as "Russian", and African American children identify themselves as "Black".

Of course, none of this proves that there are no common genetic traits in the Asian gene-pool that help them excel at math, just as there are obviously genetic traits in the African American gene-pool which help them excel at running. Still, it doesn't mean much - the standard deviation in standardized math scores within any population is magnitudes larger than the difference in mean score between Asians and whites and blacks.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#76
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't laugh, but it's a kind of patriotism. I love the country. It's beautiful. I like its philosophy. American values resonate close to my values. In the years I lived there I grew to think of it as my home much more than the country I was born in. I could see calling myself American. When I went there I was received well. I was helped. I made friends. Now I think I can help in return. I would like to contribute, es…

Did you look into the following two categories of GreenCard Visa's ? (EB4/EB5)It seems you get a Visa in 9 months. 1. Entreprenurs .... You start a business and hire 4-5 FT US employees 2. Investment .... Invest 500K in some Federal designated area.

I did, but I am not there yet. Soon, but not today. All my cash, time and energy are invested into my existing business. And trying to expand that business into US slowly without a massive and risky upfront investment would only give me a non-resident visa, not a green card.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#77
post #26
post #13

This article is about the problems that happen when foreign nationals with engineering backgrounds no longer want to live in the US. But it could just as easily be about what happens when the US is no longer able to fill these positions from its own population. And I suspect that there is a correlation between the huge numbers of visas issued and the slow decline of interest among Americans in these fields. I know, i…

I think you are missing an important part. There is low barriers for your job to be shipped abroad. A doctor's job is hard to ship, especially the emergency ones (you still hear about people going abroad for cosmetical work), and lawyers have barriers (you have to pass the Bar, laws changing constantly by state etc.), therefore they can command higher salaries. But for software engineers, the barrier of job shipping…

>While I agree, that H-1B should be used to bring really >skilled people in It is becoming impossible to do academic collaborations with the US - you can't send postdocs/professors to work on US telescopes, particle accelerators etc because they can't get H1B visas. Initially this is great, other coutries part fund the projects but only americans can work on them. the trouble is that the next round of instruments won't be in the US, Cern was built in Switzerland for this reason, ITER is in France.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#78
post #64
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> I'm a little scared of China >How can you say this when the Bush administration has just spent the past 8 years systematically dismantling your privacy rights and running a global kidnapping and torture network? Because he knows the difference between the current value and the derivative? Besides, Obama has pretty much signed onto everything, so it's all good. And then there's the "where is better?" question.

"Besides, Obama has pretty much signed onto everything, so it's all good." No, it's more than that. When they actually investigate things, it turns out they weren't as bad as painted; for instance, it turns out that Guantanamo meets all relevant Geneva conventions after all, according to the Obama administration, and I'm citing this as an example not the complete list of what I've been seeing go by lately. There's ma…

Wait a minute! Media disinformation campaign? So you are saying that there never existed a camp in Guantanamo Bay where the prisoners waited eight years without right to trial, placed in Cuba to avoid U.S. constitutional law? I've never used the word Nazi in an argument, so I won't start now, but it's really difficult.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#79
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Besides, Obama has pretty much signed onto everything, so it's all good." No, it's more than that. When they actually investigate things, it turns out they weren't as bad as painted; for instance, it turns out that Guantanamo meets all relevant Geneva conventions after all, according to the Obama administration, and I'm citing this as an example not the complete list of what I've been seeing go by lately. There's ma…

Wait a minute! Media disinformation campaign? So you are saying that there never existed a camp in Guantanamo Bay where the prisoners waited eight years without right to trial, placed in Cuba to avoid U.S. constitutional law? I've never used the word Nazi in an argument, so I won't start now, but it's really difficult.

If you actually examine the legal issues in depth, it's way more complicated and nuanced that what you imply; that simplifies the problem to the point of falsehood. Something that the Obama administration has actually flat-out said (or "admitted", if you prefer), albeit not to anywhere near the media blitz of the accusations, when they said they need a year to look at the issues involved with closure, because it's not a simple, obvious problem after all.

As a for instance... why would "avoiding US constitutional law" matter when it doesn't cover the detainees anyhow, as the Constitution only really covers citizens? You might be able to spin an argument about penumbric emanations or build an ethical argument of some kind out of that, but you certainly aren't going to get a straightforward argument out of the actual text of the constitution. There's been a lot of very careless assumptions about what the US Constitution and the Geneva convention contain tossed around on this issue, and on the whole I've found the debate almost entirely disconnected from reality in these past years.

You are free to "not like it" or think it is immoral, but its actual illegality is way murkier than the disinformation campaign has conveyed, to the point that it may not be actually illegal at all. Moreover, the moral and ethical issues haven't gotten a fair hearing either as the conditions have been routinely grossly misrepresented, to the point that almost universally when somebody actually goes there and visits it they expressed surprised at the way it really was. I totally believe that there are those who would consider the reality immoral or unpleasant, but very few people are actually operating off of a realistic view of the problem.

The real takeaway is that the situation is complicated, and when somebody says "the situation is complicated" and you have a hard time resisting calling that person a Nazi... hello! Wake up! That's a sign you're running on propaganda, not rational thought.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#80
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are missing an important part. There is low barriers for your job to be shipped abroad. A doctor's job is hard to ship, especially the emergency ones (you still hear about people going abroad for cosmetical work), and lawyers have barriers (you have to pass the Bar, laws changing constantly by state etc.), therefore they can command higher salaries. But for software engineers, the barrier of job shipping…

>While I agree, that H-1B should be used to bring really >skilled people in It is becoming impossible to do academic collaborations with the US - you can't send postdocs/professors to work on US telescopes, particle accelerators etc because they can't get H1B visas. Initially this is great, other coutries part fund the projects but only americans can work on them. the trouble is that the next round of instruments won…

That's terrible. Those researchers should be able to get visas easily.

However, I disagree with the notion that we should solve this problem by just awarding more visas. Doesn't it strike you as strange (and genuinely horrible) that universities can't get visas while outsourcing companies are gobbling up these visas by the tens of thousands? Doesn't it strike you as strange that Microsoft claims it can't bring in super high paid developers because we've hit the visa cap, yet some of these visas have been going to firms that pay the "critical worker that couldn't be found in the US" $12/hr? (sorry, no cite on that, I heard it in an interview with Ron Hira, a professor of public policy... I'll try to dig it up).

The H1B lobby loves the example you gave, because they get to claim that the H1B detractors are "opposed to letting researchers into the US for innovative collaborations." Uh, no. We've taken hundreds of thousands, maybe even over a million H1B workers into the US (the dept of labor doesn't keep exact numbers). Maybe one of these visas could have gone to the researcher, rather than some average dude who read the Oracle manual?

This program is in desperate need of a fix, no question about that. But to me, fixing it by just removing the cap, or setting an extremely high cap, is unacceptable. I don't need a fire hose to blow out my birthday candles.

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