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The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

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Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#41

Post by thras »

critic wrote: post #40
thras wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm confused. Are you claiming that the populations of all countries score the same on IQ tests? Are you saying that it's all explained by culture and that all that culture goes away when someone immigrates? Do you believe in creationism? What? While I'm sure that your conviction is sincere, I doubt it's based on any actual evidence. Instead it's an expression of how you'd like the world to be.

I think if you used words like "cultures that do not value education", you wouldn't come off as a racist/IQist as much.

Okay, sure. But then I'd have to think of an explanation for why adopted Asian-Americans do just as well (or better) academically than Asian-Americans raised by their own parents. Culture can't explain that. Maybe you could help me out?

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#42

Post by garply »

rms wrote: post #37
nebula wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It might be just my personal prejudice but I'm a little scared of China; mainly because of the fact that its own citizens don't enjoy freedom of expression, God knows what might happen to a foreign national. What's your experience? Are my fears unfounded?

You can say just about anything as long as you never question the ultimate ruling authority of the Communist Party of China. As long as you aren't going around encouraging subversion, you're fine. And the internet police won't care that you are VPN'ing your traffic, they only care about locals and those that are actively spreading subversion. So yes, it is a situation of "as long as you aren't doing anything wrong yo…

This is exactly my experience as well. I'm interested in hacking and making money - I have no interest in mucking about with a few hot-button political issues that, frankly, aren't any of my business. So, easily-circumvented firewall aside, nothing that they do really affects me.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#43

Post by redrobot5050 »

nickpp wrote: post #33
nebula wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any valid reasons as to why you would still want to move to the US?

Don't laugh, but it's a kind of patriotism. I love the country. It's beautiful. I like its philosophy. American values resonate close to my values. In the years I lived there I grew to think of it as my home much more than the country I was born in. I could see calling myself American. When I went there I was received well. I was helped. I made friends. Now I think I can help in return. I would like to contribute, es…

If you have a master's or PhD, I believe Canada has an immigration fasttrack that might be of interest for you.

But I'm only quoting what I've read off other HN comments in H1-B threads discussion U.S. immigration policy. I don't know firsthand.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#44

Post by earl »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #17
smg wrote: post #2

I am working from India for the past 3 months instead of my San Francisco office. Nearly every large IT company in India offers benefits at par with Google. Yes I mean multiple food vendors. Food being served 6 times a day. The salary of an IT professional in India easily puts him among the highest wage earners in India (something similar to how Wall Street traders were a couple of years ago). Chauffeur driven cars,…

Food being served 6 times a day. Breakfast, Second Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, Dinner and Supper? I suppose this confirms the theory that IT workers are all hobbits.

Says the dude named yummyfajitas -- that's a great username.

But seriously, that was my favorite bit of that movie:

Pippin: But what about breakfast?

Aragorn: You've already had it.

Pippin: We've had one, yes. But what about second breakfast?

[Aragorn stares at him, then walks off.]

Merry: Don't think he knows about second breakfast, Pip.

Pippin: What about elevensies? Luncheon? Afternoon tea? Dinner? Supper? He knows about them, doesn't he?

Merry: I wouldn't count on it.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#45

Post by geebee »

ardit33 wrote: post #26
geebee wrote: post #13

This article is about the problems that happen when foreign nationals with engineering backgrounds no longer want to live in the US. But it could just as easily be about what happens when the US is no longer able to fill these positions from its own population. And I suspect that there is a correlation between the huge numbers of visas issued and the slow decline of interest among Americans in these fields. I know, i…

I think you are missing an important part. There is low barriers for your job to be shipped abroad. A doctor's job is hard to ship, especially the emergency ones (you still hear about people going abroad for cosmetical work), and lawyers have barriers (you have to pass the Bar, laws changing constantly by state etc.), therefore they can command higher salaries. But for software engineers, the barrier of job shipping…

It's hard to include all my points in such a nuanced issue. I actually agree with you that a visa program that brings in a smaller number of truly talented people (and preserves their freedom to choose their profession, job, and location) would be a good thing for the US. The H1B as it stands is wretched. Yeah, it brings in these folks, but it is also a massive scale indentured worker program, used extensively to facilitate outsourcing. A lot of people are surprised to discover that 6 or the top 10 users of the program are actually Indian outsourcing companies, who use the visa to cycle a worker through the US for a couple of years to facilitate moving the job overseas. And two of the remaining top 10 are based in the US but are essentially outsourcing companies. The first US company on the list, Microsoft, only comes in at #5!

I think a lot of the dispute comes from a misunderstanding about how the visa is used. It's almost like two completely alternate universes - one side is using it to bring in innovators, and the other is using it to replace ordinary american workers with ordinary workers from overseas at a lower rate. Everyone seems to agree about this, the only dispute is the extent. You might want to check out this article - :

http://news.yahoo.com/s/bw/20090224/bs_bw/feb2009tc200902239...

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#46

Post by chiffonade »

nebula wrote: post #30
garply wrote: post #10

I'm a US citizen in the SF bay area, bootstrapping a web company by myself, and I'm heading out to Beijing this summer. PG talks a lot about reaching 'ramen profitability' and there's no easier place to hit that than China. It's going to cost me about $400 a month to live (frugally), and if I needed to, I could teach English for about $60 / hr. Worst case scenario, a native English speaker could dedicate one or two d…

It might be just my personal prejudice but I'm a little scared of China; mainly because of the fact that its own citizens don't enjoy freedom of expression, God knows what might happen to a foreign national. What's your experience? Are my fears unfounded?

> I'm a little scared of China

How can you say this when the Bush administration has just spent the past 8 years systematically dismantling your privacy rights and running a global kidnapping and torture network?

Meanwhile, the US imprisons more of its population than any other nation on earth, especially for non-violent crimes. It doesn't scare you that you can be thrown in jail for years because you like to smoke a little weed?

I think what you meant to say is "I'm afraid of Chinese people/China and I haven't really put much thought into this." Why don't you go there before you start getting afraid of it. Do you even own a passport?

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#47

Post by nickpp »

rms wrote: post #35
nickpp wrote: post #6

I left USA after being an H1B for 5 years with delay after delay in my GC application. HARD decision. Hated leaving... Went to my home country, created a software company with successful products. Now a few dozen jobs are here instead of there and some million $$$ are flowing into my country. Still, I would move to the US and open an office if I'd have a legal, fast way to get a residency there. Not likely though.

How is the path to residency for the kind of visa you get when you start a capitalized business?

Sucky, for all I know. Either expensive (you need 1 mil. USD - I may have a successful business but I am not rich until I sell it or something) or extremely risky: if your US business fails to grow as specified you may lose your visa.

Now I am not risk adverse in business, but when it comes to living in a place, I need to settle (for me and my family). We love to travel and explore, but home must be home: safe and stable.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#48

Post by dmpayton »

earl wrote: post #44
yummyfajitas wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food being served 6 times a day. Breakfast, Second Breakfast, Brunch, Lunch, Dinner and Supper? I suppose this confirms the theory that IT workers are all hobbits.

Says the dude named yummyfajitas -- that's a great username. But seriously, that was my favorite bit of that movie: Pippin: But what about breakfast? Aragorn: You've already had it. Pippin: We've had one, yes. But what about second breakfast? [Aragorn stares at him, then walks off.] Merry: Don't think he knows about second breakfast, Pip. Pippin: What about elevensies? Luncheon? Afternoon tea? Dinner? Supper? He know…

But seriously, that was my favorite bit of that movie:

Please read the books, they're far superior to the movies.

Edit: Downvotes, hmmm. Allow me to explain...

The LotR movie trilogy, while being excellent movies in and of themselves, do not do the books justice. PJ's interpretation (and subsequent plot hacking) left me wanting more, and not in a good way.

Admittedly, that may have more to do with the medium in which the storyline was delivered. Cinema, while more visually appealing than the written word, simply cannot offer the same depth that a book can.

I think it's safe to say that in most cases where books are translated to movies, the book remains the better of the two.

Anyways, sorry for the offtopic thread.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#49

Post by nickpp »

redrobot5050 wrote: post #43
nickpp wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't laugh, but it's a kind of patriotism. I love the country. It's beautiful. I like its philosophy. American values resonate close to my values. In the years I lived there I grew to think of it as my home much more than the country I was born in. I could see calling myself American. When I went there I was received well. I was helped. I made friends. Now I think I can help in return. I would like to contribute, es…

If you have a master's or PhD, I believe Canada has an immigration fasttrack that might be of interest for you. But I'm only quoting what I've read off other HN comments in H1-B threads discussion U.S. immigration policy. I don't know firsthand.

I do have a master's but I've never stayed too long in Canada. I am actually planning to go over there later this year for a couple of months to see how I like it. But its regular immigration process takes years...

And I'm not big fan of its more socialist government. Just like I'm not big fan of UK's big-bro government, even though UK has (lately) a rather fast and straightforward immigration policy.

But they are the closest to US, from all the countries I visited, so I'll research them both a bit more.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#50

Post by critic »

thras wrote: post #41
critic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think if you used words like "cultures that do not value education", you wouldn't come off as a racist/IQist as much.

Okay, sure. But then I'd have to think of an explanation for why adopted Asian-Americans do just as well (or better) academically than Asian-Americans raised by their own parents. Culture can't explain that. Maybe you could help me out?

Maybe they mingle with other Asians in school? In any case, it would be interesting to see the study you are referring to.
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