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The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

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Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#31

Post by ardit33 »

adamc wrote: post #7
Rod wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's tempting to think that the job market works that simply. However, it takes at least 10 years to train a good scientist / engineer. Waiting 10 years is a luxury. Moreover, people who choose a career based on earning power tend not to be talented or creative. In other words, people who would be attracted to Science / Engineering if the salaries would rise a bit are exactly the kind of people that make mediocre sci…

Link, please. I think you are painting with too broad a brush. Many people are attracted to many things, and economics is one of the factors they use to discriminate between them.

I agree with Rod. I witnessed this first hand during the dot-com boom. (i was in school then). I attracted a lot of types "I am going to retire by 25" types, which had no talent. They would soon quit within the year when they hit the wall on the mid-higher level CS classes. My school had a notorious class that you had to take either second semester, or first in Sophomore year, which was challenging, but it went deep down in CS concepts. A lot of people failed that class. They will either try again, or just switch to Business, or Information Technology (watered down CS/bussiness combination. Good for somebody doing IT work at some large corp).

Just raising salaries is not a path to get more great engineers. More mediocre ones, yes. I think there is a hard limit in the general population on how many good engineers it can produce.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#32

Post by donw »

garply wrote: post #10

I'm a US citizen in the SF bay area, bootstrapping a web company by myself, and I'm heading out to Beijing this summer. PG talks a lot about reaching 'ramen profitability' and there's no easier place to hit that than China. It's going to cost me about $400 a month to live (frugally), and if I needed to, I could teach English for about $60 / hr. Worst case scenario, a native English speaker could dedicate one or two d…

I'm also going to Beijing, albeit for a short trip, this summer -- my business partner is there right now doing a year of study abroad, and I've been thinking along the same lines as you. Although I don't think you get $60/hr for teaching English, unless you mean the equivalent of that in local wages.

That said, how do you plan on coping with the Great Firewall? We've had nothing but problems with connectivity outside of China...

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#33

Post by nickpp »

nebula wrote: post #27
nickpp wrote: post #6

I left USA after being an H1B for 5 years with delay after delay in my GC application. HARD decision. Hated leaving... Went to my home country, created a software company with successful products. Now a few dozen jobs are here instead of there and some million $$$ are flowing into my country. Still, I would move to the US and open an office if I'd have a legal, fast way to get a residency there. Not likely though.

Are there any valid reasons as to why you would still want to move to the US?

Don't laugh, but it's a kind of patriotism.

I love the country. It's beautiful. I like its philosophy. American values resonate close to my values. In the years I lived there I grew to think of it as my home much more than the country I was born in. I could see calling myself American.

When I went there I was received well. I was helped. I made friends. Now I think I can help in return. I would like to contribute, especially in a downturn. I would buy a house, I would create jobs.

Now, I travel a lot (including in US) so I live all over the world. And financially I'd have little to gain in States (no extra income, higher living costs, higher taxation, higher business costs). So it'd be mostly an idealistic gesture, a way for me to participate in building something larger than myself and what I've already built. Something I truly believe in.

But I am not getting myself again in the Kafka's nightmare that US immigration is. Waiting years for some bureaucrat to decide if your life will go on or will be completely changed "just because". No thanks. I'd only consider another country if I'd have a clear, legal and quick path to residency. Otherwise... I'll only be a tourist.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#34

Post by thras »

ajju wrote: post #22
thras wrote: post #19

At the risk of getting modded to oblivion again, I'll say it again: we need to change our immigration policies to encourage high-skill immigration from high-IQ countries, and discourage low-skill immigration from low-IQ countries. We don't need more yard-workers -- they don't contribute much to GDP, suck up a lot of social services (tax dollars), and even their grand-children have trouble graduating high school. Buil…

There are High-IQ countries? Must be the water!

I'm confused. Are you claiming that the populations of all countries score the same on IQ tests? Are you saying that it's all explained by culture and that all that culture goes away when someone immigrates? Do you believe in creationism? What?

While I'm sure that your conviction is sincere, I doubt it's based on any actual evidence. Instead it's an expression of how you'd like the world to be.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#35

Post by rms »

nickpp wrote: post #6

I left USA after being an H1B for 5 years with delay after delay in my GC application. HARD decision. Hated leaving... Went to my home country, created a software company with successful products. Now a few dozen jobs are here instead of there and some million $$$ are flowing into my country. Still, I would move to the US and open an office if I'd have a legal, fast way to get a residency there. Not likely though.

How is the path to residency for the kind of visa you get when you start a capitalized business?

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#36

Post by thras »

queensnake wrote: post #28
thras wrote: post #19

At the risk of getting modded to oblivion again, I'll say it again: we need to change our immigration policies to encourage high-skill immigration from high-IQ countries, and discourage low-skill immigration from low-IQ countries. We don't need more yard-workers -- they don't contribute much to GDP, suck up a lot of social services (tax dollars), and even their grand-children have trouble graduating high school. Buil…

But the border with Mexico is huuuge. Also, this article is about Indians & Chinese. Are they high or low IQ? My understanding of the racist consensus is that that of the Chinese is at least as high as American whites; Indians, it's more mixed or unknown. What was your angle, that the US should make it easier, /for the better educated/?

Sure, education is a fairly good indicator of IQ. Could you care to explain what you mean by "racist consensus"? Why don't you explain to me what right-thinking people believe about the genetics of intelligence.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#37

Post by rms »

nebula wrote: post #30
garply wrote: post #10

I'm a US citizen in the SF bay area, bootstrapping a web company by myself, and I'm heading out to Beijing this summer. PG talks a lot about reaching 'ramen profitability' and there's no easier place to hit that than China. It's going to cost me about $400 a month to live (frugally), and if I needed to, I could teach English for about $60 / hr. Worst case scenario, a native English speaker could dedicate one or two d…

It might be just my personal prejudice but I'm a little scared of China; mainly because of the fact that its own citizens don't enjoy freedom of expression, God knows what might happen to a foreign national. What's your experience? Are my fears unfounded?

You can say just about anything as long as you never question the ultimate ruling authority of the Communist Party of China.

As long as you aren't going around encouraging subversion, you're fine. And the internet police won't care that you are VPN'ing your traffic, they only care about locals and those that are actively spreading subversion.

So yes, it is a situation of "as long as you aren't doing anything wrong you have nothing to fear."

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#38

Post by critic »

smg wrote: post #2

I am working from India for the past 3 months instead of my San Francisco office. Nearly every large IT company in India offers benefits at par with Google. Yes I mean multiple food vendors. Food being served 6 times a day. The salary of an IT professional in India easily puts him among the highest wage earners in India (something similar to how Wall Street traders were a couple of years ago). Chauffeur driven cars,…

But what are the salaries like: before taxes, after taxes, after rent and chauffeurs?

By the way, do you think a typical C++ programmer on Wall St. suddenly changed his lifestyle recently?

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#39

Post by garply »

donw wrote: post #32
garply wrote: post #10

I'm a US citizen in the SF bay area, bootstrapping a web company by myself, and I'm heading out to Beijing this summer. PG talks a lot about reaching 'ramen profitability' and there's no easier place to hit that than China. It's going to cost me about $400 a month to live (frugally), and if I needed to, I could teach English for about $60 / hr. Worst case scenario, a native English speaker could dedicate one or two d…

I'm also going to Beijing, albeit for a short trip, this summer -- my business partner is there right now doing a year of study abroad, and I've been thinking along the same lines as you. Although I don't think you get $60/hr for teaching English, unless you mean the equivalent of that in local wages. That said, how do you plan on coping with the Great Firewall? We've had nothing but problems with connectivity outsid…

You can target wealthy families, build relationships so that you get recommended to their friends, and market yourself as an upscale tutor.

Re: firewall, I haven't found it to be particularly problematic. Just set up a server in the US and use an SSH tunnel. The speed can be slow, but you should be ok as long as you're not trying to stream video or the like.

Re: The Real High-Tech Immigrant Problem: They’re Leaving

#40

Post by critic »

thras wrote: post #34
ajju wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are High-IQ countries? Must be the water!

I'm confused. Are you claiming that the populations of all countries score the same on IQ tests? Are you saying that it's all explained by culture and that all that culture goes away when someone immigrates? Do you believe in creationism? What? While I'm sure that your conviction is sincere, I doubt it's based on any actual evidence. Instead it's an expression of how you'd like the world to be.

I think if you used words like "cultures that do not value education", you wouldn't come off as a racist/IQist as much.
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