Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

ustc.ac.uk

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 93 posts

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#71

Post by wahern »

troad wrote: post #70
wahern wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The modern mass can be done ad orientem. The switch of orientation was only permitted, not required, in the Novus Ordo. Most of the changes people associate with the Novus Ordo were completely optional and often not even expected to have become so common. This is why all the popes have been exasperated, to varying extents, with the Latin Mass movement. Literally nothing prevents dioceses from celebrating the Novus Or…

Why would the Papacy be exasperated with the Latin Mass movement if it's merely celebrating one of the allowable options? (Genuine question, I'm sure I lack all context.)

What's colloquially called the Latin Mass is the Tridentine Mass, which among other things uses a different calendar, including different biblical readings each week (a smaller selection of biblical passages than the Novus Ordo uses). So it's not just a variation of the Novus Ordo, though the Novus Ordo could be performed in a way that satisfies the vast majority of traditional-minded parishioners. It's exasperating because certain ideologues behind the movement are elevating small changes into pseudo-doctrinal issues that have a tendency to lead to schism. The Orthodox churches have fractured over the centuries over calendar related issues, for example. It's fundamentally traditionalism for traditionalism's sake, which is a little ironic because in many respects the Novus Ordo reverts the mass to an older form more similar to the practices of the church over a millennia ago, as well as more similar in some respects to Orthodox masses.

If the Latin Mass advocates were serious, they'd engage with the Novus Ordo. For example, seek more uniformity--the Novus Ordo has too many optional variations, which means the mass might have different prayers in one geographic area than another, whereas the Tridentine Mass is more uniform. (See, e.g., https://lms.org.uk/missals) The fact they don't betrays some of the underlying motivations and dynamics.

Another aspect mostly unrelated to the mass itself was the Second Vatican Council deemphasisizing the role of clerics and religious--nuns, religious sisters, etc. That's a whole 'nother thing, but it's a significant factor behind the movement. It's far more understandable, but again can be addressed directly, without the subterfuge.

All institutional religions struggle with the tension between traditionalists and reformers; it's a form of politics. What has made the Roman Catholic church almost singularly unique has been it's ability to hold together so many people across diverse cultures and geographies. What's playing out now has played out many times before, though obviously the Roman Church has not always been successful at avoiding schism. Notably, though, it continues to keep in mind undoing previous schisms, and some choices made by the Second Vatican Council were focused on reconciliation, both with Protestant but also Orthodox churches. For example, the change in biblical readings seems to have been aimed at Protestantism--the readings in the US are coordinated through a group that includes representatives from, IIRC, Methodists and Episcopalians. Being less doctrinaire about some of the prayers in the Tridentine Mass was a way to affirm the validity of Orthodox rites.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#72

Post by celebril »

sdsd wrote: post #57
celebril wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only stylish because of the imagined qualities of prestige vested in a language you're not fluent in. It's the same as how you get English-speaking people realising how cringe-inducing anime dialogue really is when they hear it in English instead of Japanese, and then championing "the only REAL way of consuming anime is in Japanese dub!", not realising the Japanese used in that is also extremely cringey. People…

No, the Tridentine (Latin mass) has many other qualities aside from just being in Latin that make it pretty spectacular compared to the Novus Ordo (post Vatican II) mass. You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass. I'm not Catholic but everyone should attend Latin mass at least once just as an artistic exp…

Oh I've been to Tridentine masses. I'm a church organist. I literally "play" a part in liturgies.

I don't really see that much of a difference to be honest. A lot of people make a big fuss out of the details but the shape of the liturgy as a whole is practically the same.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#73

Post by troad »

wahern wrote: post #71
troad wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would the Papacy be exasperated with the Latin Mass movement if it's merely celebrating one of the allowable options? (Genuine question, I'm sure I lack all context.)

What's colloquially called the Latin Mass is the Tridentine Mass, which among other things uses a different calendar, including different biblical readings each week (a smaller selection of biblical passages than the Novus Ordo uses). So it's not just a variation of the Novus Ordo, though the Novus Ordo could be performed in a way that satisfies the vast majority of traditional-minded parishioners. It's exasperating…

Very interesting, thank you for the thoughtful explanation!

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#74

Post by graemep »

stickfigure wrote: post #63
tremon wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

English is the international language now . About a century ago, the lingua franca of the technological world was German. Half of my father's university text books were in German, pretty much all of mine were in English. Things can (and do) change.

Except now the whole world is in a common meme pool. Thanks to the internet, Metcalfe’s Law applies to languages globally. China may stave it off for a while by firewalling its population... but the rest of the world won't care. It's not going to change again. Not even if the US and UK both sank into the ocean.

There are large number of people in China learning English. While China might firewall some things, learning languages does not seem to be one of them.

> Not even if the US and UK both sank into the ocean.

Lots of English speakers in other countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-s...

I think its likely that list greatly undercounts the number of people who speak English as a first language because of difficulties around the data about things such people who are bilingual and (cultural, not necessarily on the part of the people conducting surveys) assumptions about ethnicity and language, sources of numbers etc.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#75

Post by anthk »

oersted wrote: post #40
mostertoaster wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The classical school movement in America is growing quite rapidly, and so maybe we start to see it again? My kids at least are all learning Latin, and later, Greek.

In Spain both are still taught in the standard high-school curriculum. Not everyone takes those classes of course, but Latin is one of the core optatives in the humanities path, it can be chosen in the university entrance exam as one of the core tests, and many students do pick it. It's not really taught as a foreign language though, it is used to teach fundamental concepts in linguistic analysis and translation, and…

Give him this book, it's pre-University, from the Algebra basics to Calculus. https://biblioteca.empresainteligente.com/resources/bibliote...

It's in Spanish, proof based, but not as hard as Spivak. If he is good at programming he must be good at logic and thus if he understands Math as something to apply rules, he we will ace the book.

He can use Maxima to locally solve the equations. Forget LLM's, these will just make him dumber. Maxima to test the solutions, pen and paper:

https://maxima.sourceforge.io/

Docs in Spanish https://maxima.sourceforge.io/docs/manual/es/maxima.html

More books, "Primeros Pasos" it's a good one to start with and then just use the Maxima manual as the reference:

https://maxima.sourceforge.io/es/documentation.html

The Windows version comes with everything in the installer. Linux distros have it in its repos, install "wxmaxima" and "maxima-doc" for documentation. It's weights very little, less than 100MB. Install Gnuplot too for plots/charts/graphs (altough it might come preinstalled for Windows).

And a Math background, even a basic one will be extremeley helpful while coding.

Most schools in Spain thaught us Math as methods to blindly apply formulae based on rote memorization and everyone was just clueless.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#76

Post by 1718627440 »

comrade1234 wrote: post #3

My grandfather emigrated from Vilnius (was polish at the time) to the USA as a teenager and managed to find a church that did their mass in Latin, and still does to this day. I assume he understood it but I'm not sure - he was well-educated and spoke a few languages.

Latin is a very regular language and has tons of ties to words in other modern languages. I can't speak Latin, but I'm able to follow the mass and orations just fine. It's really not too difficult when you hear it so often, and the amount of words is limited to the same things, that are then the same in other Romance languages.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#77

Post by 1718627440 »

celebril wrote: post #33
alexdbird wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't deny it, mass is much more stylish in Latin ;)

It's only stylish because of the imagined qualities of prestige vested in a language you're not fluent in. It's the same as how you get English-speaking people realising how cringe-inducing anime dialogue really is when they hear it in English instead of Japanese, and then championing "the only REAL way of consuming anime is in Japanese dub!", not realising the Japanese used in that is also extremely cringey. People…

I think people regularly attending the mass in Latin, also understand it. Latin is able to just capture the meaning and relation of things much better, than other languages, there is an importance and brevity to expressions, that other language just don't have. Sometimes I wonder whether Latin was actually designed, but of course it was shaped through the millennia.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#78

Post by 1718627440 »

michaelscott wrote: post #31
Tade0 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He didn't know the nationality of the man in front of him as he's never seen the faces of the two before. It was the mid 90s, so it's not like he could easily look that up. Also he figured it would be rude. IIRC the wider context is that my dad, not knowing where the priests were at that moment and having no one to ask in the vicinity, went to a confessional as he saw someone there.

But why wouldn't he start the conversation in Polish? If the priest responds, he is Polish. If he doesn't, he is Spanish.

Because addressing someone in a language they might not know seams rude and entitled and also sparks a kind of helplessness in the other and the situation. Addressing someone in a language he knows is polite and has a likely hood of better success of the topic of the conversation and not drifting into a side quest of determining a way to communicate.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#79

Post by 1718627440 »

danielam wrote: post #67
vaylian wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Latin language should be become the official language of the EU It would be more practical, if everyone spoke the same language, but the EU does deliberately not want that. The EU wants to preserve language and culture of its member states and regions. "United in Diversity" is an important idea of the EU.

I think the emphasis is on official . That is, it would function as the common language of administration, communication, diplomacy, etc. (i.e., lingua franca), but it wouldn't replace vernacular languages. This was the norm centuries ago in Europe. One advantage of it being "dead" is that the meanings of terms are much more stable. They don't undergo the usual slippage and mutation of spoken languages. This advantag…

It certainly also sounds cool to me, but it has the disadvantage, that you need to invent a lot of terms for concepts invented in the last 200 years.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#80

Post by 1718627440 »

lifestyleguru wrote: post #12

I even have some medical diagnosis from Poland of a family member in Latin from the early 1990s. Weird elitist way of saying "you have cancer and our healthcare is one big corrupted ruin so you will suffer". The doctor was probably smoking a cigarette while typing it.

Receipts are still formalized in Latin internationally, because you should be able to take it across the world. All plants, diseases and medicaments have standardized Latin terms. What use would be a polish medication, in a country that doesn't speak polish. Au contraire, the assumption, that everyone one the world understands a local language is elitist.
Post reply on HN