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We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

ustc.ac.uk

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Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#51

Post by toyg »

graemep wrote: post #15
snowpid wrote: post #6

As a side note I do think Latin language should be become the official language of the EU. It's dead so - its a compromise for all member staes - you can change as you like - it was used millennials as a law language so it fits

I think that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals. It puts different groups on a more equal footing. Far more people understand it than things like Esperanto. Quite a lot of people know it a bit. I did it at school. My kids learned some (their choice to do it up to GCSE level). That said, in practice, English is the international language. It is what is most likely to be use…

> that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals.

Nah, it's just because that particular institution tries very hard to be internally consistent, for historical reasons. They immediately publish translations of such documents into "common" languages as well, and that's what non-clerics will actually read.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#52

Post by baud147258 »

tecleandor wrote: post #9
comrade1234 wrote: post #3

My grandfather emigrated from Vilnius (was polish at the time) to the USA as a teenager and managed to find a church that did their mass in Latin, and still does to this day. I assume he understood it but I'm not sure - he was well-educated and spoke a few languages.

Giving the mass in Latin wasn't (generally) done because people understood Latin, but because of a traditionalist sense. The Second Vatican Council stated (among other things) that the mass could be done in other languages apart from Latin, and that it was a good thing to use local languages, so people could understand it better. After that Council some excisions appeared, like the Society of Saint Pius X, that recla…

Though the mass introduced with Vatican II had a certain number of differences with the previous, Latin mass. Also while the Society of Saint Pius X excision still exists (and looking at their recent decision, will continue to be split from Rome's authority), I'd say that the majority of parishes celebrating the previous mass are under Rome's authority.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#53

Post by zdragnar »

kjs3 wrote: post #16
bombcar wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The church Latin used in “the Latin Mass” is relatively simple and pretty easy to learn; and it’s very rare to find one that does the readings and homily in Latin; most of those are in English (or the local language) even at an FSSP parish. Of course if it’s “really” done in the ancient way then it’s done at such a high speed that you need five or six Jesuits and advanced recording equipment to even figure out what i…

I recall some of the Orthodox denominations still do mass in Latin. I visited an Antiochian Orthodox Church for a class where this was the case. I think (it has been a long while) the key phrase you'd look for is 'Western Rite'.

Antiochian (eastern rite) and Assyrian Orthodox both do at least some of their masses in Aramaic, which can be interesting, though there may be a mix of others as well (note that Assyrian is fully independent, whereas Antiochian is in full communion with the broader Easter Orthodox church).

"Western Rite" would be those that adopted Latin or local western languages and traditions- think organs or other musical instruments, unleavened bread, crossing yourself from left to right, etc. The Catholic and Protestant churches are like this, along with a relatively small number of Orthodox churches. "Eastern Rite" are those that follow the Eastern Orthodox traditions, chanting the divine liturgies in older languages, no musical instrumentation, leavened bread, crossing yourself from right to left, etc.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#54

Post by tecleandor »

iagooar wrote: post #45
tecleandor wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving the mass in Latin wasn't (generally) done because people understood Latin, but because of a traditionalist sense. The Second Vatican Council stated (among other things) that the mass could be done in other languages apart from Latin, and that it was a good thing to use local languages, so people could understand it better. After that Council some excisions appeared, like the Society of Saint Pius X, that recla…

Besides the language being Latin vs local languages, there is one huge difference people don't know about. The Tridentine Mass has the priest facing toward the altar and the tabernacle, this is called "ad orientem". In "modern" day post-Second-Vatican-Council mass, the priest typically speaks the local language and faces the congregation.

That's it, I wasn't sure if I was imagining the "priest not looking at you" thing...

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#55

Post by giraffe_lady »

expedition32 wrote: post #2

I remember reading 17th century letters from Dutch diplomats. They used French to write back home- except when they talked about money. Such matters required a higher form of communication.

There's a lot of french in tolstoy too, and I believe most of the dialog can be inferred to be in french but is in russian for literary reasons. French was the daily home language of the russian imperial aristocracy. They spoke russian with an accent.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#56

Post by graemep »

toyg wrote: post #51
graemep wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals. It puts different groups on a more equal footing. Far more people understand it than things like Esperanto. Quite a lot of people know it a bit. I did it at school. My kids learned some (their choice to do it up to GCSE level). That said, in practice, English is the international language. It is what is most likely to be use…

> that is a reason the catholic Church still uses it for things like papal encyclicals. Nah, it's just because that particular institution tries very hard to be internally consistent, for historical reasons. They immediately publish translations of such documents into "common" languages as well, and that's what non-clerics will actually read.

I said a reason, not the reason. Both can be true.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#57

Post by sdsd »

celebril wrote: post #33
alexdbird wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can't deny it, mass is much more stylish in Latin ;)

It's only stylish because of the imagined qualities of prestige vested in a language you're not fluent in. It's the same as how you get English-speaking people realising how cringe-inducing anime dialogue really is when they hear it in English instead of Japanese, and then championing "the only REAL way of consuming anime is in Japanese dub!", not realising the Japanese used in that is also extremely cringey. People…

No, the Tridentine (Latin mass) has many other qualities aside from just being in Latin that make it pretty spectacular compared to the Novus Ordo (post Vatican II) mass. You should find a church that does it near you, it's really incredible and quite unlike what you're used to if you've only ever experienced the modern mass.

I'm not Catholic but everyone should attend Latin mass at least once just as an artistic experience.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#58

Post by cm2187 »

graemep wrote: post #14
tecleandor wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Giving the mass in Latin wasn't (generally) done because people understood Latin, but because of a traditionalist sense. The Second Vatican Council stated (among other things) that the mass could be done in other languages apart from Latin, and that it was a good thing to use local languages, so people could understand it better. After that Council some excisions appeared, like the Society of Saint Pius X, that recla…

Historically Latin was also a common international language. Educated people could understand Latin across much of Europe. Not so great for the majority of people, of course. The article seems to indicate that in some places it was pretty widely understood. I think some rites of the church did use other languages such as Syriac. I knew about SSPX but not the Palmarians. They seem to be even odder and a cult. Interest…

Latin was still part of the mandatory curriculum in french schools, at least when I was there. Didn’t make french kids bilingual (no more than english courses), but it would be safe to assume the average man in the street has at least some vague notions of latin.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#59

Post by vaylian »

snowpid wrote: post #6

As a side note I do think Latin language should be become the official language of the EU. It's dead so - its a compromise for all member staes - you can change as you like - it was used millennials as a law language so it fits

> Latin language should be become the official language of the EU

It would be more practical, if everyone spoke the same language, but the EU does deliberately not want that. The EU wants to preserve language and culture of its member states and regions. "United in Diversity" is an important idea of the EU.

Re: We are Poles, so, of course, we print in Latin

#60

Post by WaitWaitWha »

ulfw wrote: post #41
michaelscott wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But why wouldn't he start the conversation in Polish? If the priest responds, he is Polish. If he doesn't, he is Spanish.

Yea I didn't get this logic either. Why would the Polish person be the one assumed to be speaking Latin but the Spanish (literally a language based on Latin) person not? Who says Spanish people can't learn Latin?

because the assumption is that he wanted the child baptized by a Polish priest.

Could it be he just wanted the child baptized, no matter if it was Spanish or Polish priest? Then, starting with Latin is the way to get a priest's attention.

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