NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months • Hacker News Board

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#71

Post by hn_throwaway_99 » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 3:56 AM UTC

weird-eye-issue wrote: post #32

"average daily peak concentrations of PM2.5 dropped by 3.05 µg/m³. For context, background pollution levels in the region typically hover around 8-9 µg/m³, making this reduction particularly significant for public health." I think that the numbers are already low enough that the drop is actually not very significant, at all. Is there any data that shows better health outcomes at 8 vs 13 for PM 2.5 levels? From my und…

This is not accurate. The WHO (which recommends lower levels than US authorities) recommends an annual PM 2.5 level below 5 µg/m³: https://www.c40knowledgehub.org/s/article/WHO-Air-Quality-Gu...

But more importantly, when it comes to PM 2.5 levels, there are really no safe levels, the risks are just dose dependent, so lower is always better. In a city the size of NYC, lowering air pollution by 20% means a significant decrease in effects.

To give a good analogy, driving a car on the US is still quite safe, most of us take that risk, but still, thousands die annually from car accidents. A one fifth reduction in deaths from car accidents, even from its current low level, would be a major deal. In NYC, around 1 in 20 deaths is linked to air pollution.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#72

Post by CGMthrowaway » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 4:00 AM UTC

petesergeant wrote: post #51

khannn wrote: post #21

Regressive tax keeps the poor out of area with their older vehicles that pollute more than people who can afford to pay a $9 fee per day. News at 11.

The American mind truly struggles with the concept of people not owning cars

We did perfect their mass production, and it propelled us to the world's largest economy. The only country with better GDP growth over the last 100 years is Japan, and that's in large part because they perfected the manufacture of cars themselves.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#73

Post by khannn » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 4:00 AM UTC

petesergeant wrote: post #51

khannn wrote: post #21

Regressive tax keeps the poor out of area with their older vehicles that pollute more than people who can afford to pay a $9 fee per day. News at 11.

The American mind truly struggles with the concept of people not owning cars

The European mind quivers at the thought of a state with a bigger area than most EU countries

I like walking around new cities, but a lot of people are car life types

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#74

Post by CGMthrowaway » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 4:01 AM UTC

Hammershaft wrote: post #68

hammock wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which objections were proven wrong?

The objection that pricing will damage local retail, in aggregate retail has thrived from pricing. https://bettercities.substack.com/p/congestion-pricing-is-a-...

Retail where? Inside the congestion zone? What about outside it?

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#75

Post by jkaplowitz » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 4:02 AM UTC

knollimar wrote: post #27

lmm wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not in NYC where less than half the population has access to a car.

2.90 is pretty accessible

The 2.90 is even capped at $34 per week. Then there's the 50% discount for low-income NYC residents who qualify and apply for the Fair Fares NYC program, or for anyone regadless of residence who qualifies for reduced fares through age or a qualifying disability.

Both of these numbers are changing in early January to $3 and $35 respectively, but same idea.

Still, some European countries like Germany offer far cheaper than this, while others like the UK are probably pricer. NYC public transit gives very good value for the US at least.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#76

Post by khannn » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 4:02 AM UTC

anyonecancode wrote: post #64

khannn wrote: post #21

Regressive tax keeps the poor out of area with their older vehicles that pollute more than people who can afford to pay a $9 fee per day. News at 11.

Who are these mythical people who can pay $500/month to park below 60th street but will be bankrupted by the congestion toll?

$1.50 toll on rideshare drivers/users and/or people getting dropped off at work.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#77

Post by jkaplowitz » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 4:03 AM UTC

ashleyn wrote: post #28

hammock wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They better be. No one’s rooting for the smog, but a congestion tax is pretty regressive (hurts poorer people more)

Well, Mamdani wants to make transit free. Car taxes can probably help a lot to pay for that.

Partial correction: he wants to make buses free, but not subways.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#78

Post by 5kh » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 4:03 AM UTC

tux1968 wrote: post #25

afavour wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn’t say every objection was disingenuous, just that there was an incredible number of objections that were.

I'm sure you're being honest about your intent, but a glancing read of your previous comment sounded categorical, to my ear at least, "And they've all been proven false."

It’s hard from reading what is written how it is intended. Written communication is hard since it doesn’t encapsulate tone, emphasis, and other cues. I read “all” in this case to mean: “most of the commonly espoused objections”.

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#79

Post by dangus » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 4:04 AM UTC

frankest wrote: post #58

Pooge wrote: post #24

I live in Europe so it's still very much considered pedestrian-friendly, but cars and roads scale so bad. Especially with population density going through the roof in bigger cities. I wonder how it's going to look like in 50 years.

EV self-driving shuttles you can take on demand so nobody needs to keep a car

Or, how about this, connect them together and put them on rails to reduce friction.

You could even run them separate from the street with raised platforms for accessibility and sometimes even run them underground.

We could call this something like “underway” or “steel beam connect-o-cars”

Re: NYC congestion pricing cuts air pollution by a fifth in six months

#80

Post by jpalawaga » Wed, Dec 10, 2025, 4:05 AM UTC

csomar wrote: post #66

1970-01-01 wrote: post #2

The fact that tolls are now directly useful to the entire public must not be underappreciated. This is good news for everyone.

No it’s not. NYC transit is already one of the most expensive in the world and quality is suspect. Pushing money into a dysfunctional structure doesn’t make it functional and might make it worse. A money grab from the public that goes through a maze of expenses. The solution was to re-structure the MTA. But that’s hard work. Politicians would rather blame the other side and just raise taxes. The people like it becaus…

The quality is not suspect. It is one of the world’s few 24/7 systems, and there are many capital improvements happening constantly. For example, making more stations accessible and improving switching equipment to improve reliability and volume.

This comment is typical HN “government bad can do no right” fodder. The MTA is truly a marvel in the service it provides. The only advantage it has is age, which is why it is so expansive.