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'70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

electrek.co

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Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#71

Post by moribvndvs »

habosa wrote: post #18

I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill. I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but…

I don’t even like regular bikes at speed (10+ mph) on mixed use paths, because kids, pets, and inattentive pedestrians (or cyclists) are a horrific combination, but now I get to watch assholes with headphones on ripping down sidewalks at 20-30 miles an hour while flipping through their phones. It’s fucking idiotic.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#72

Post by shkkmo »

Sayrus wrote: post #14
potato3732842 wrote: post #5

Going 30 on anything that resembles a bike in geometry and construction is not a leisurely activity one engages in casually. 40 is pushing it, 50 you know is unsafe. 70 is a publicity stunt in a controlled environment. Yes, I know road bikes (with or without electricity) hit high speeds in certain situations, but those situations are away from traffic or potential traffic, a big downhill in the middle of nowhere or a…

Let's face it, an e-bike that goes to 70 rarely looks like a bike. For instance: - https://hpcbikes.com/products/revolution-xx - https://www.eridepros.com/pro-sr (no bicycle pedals) I was able to find some 60MPH e-bikes that looks somewhat like a very bulky bike but even then, it's still closer to a motorcycle with pedals.

The link you added to the HPCBike actually looks far more like an bike than many of the much slower class 2 e-bikes that are sold. Appearance isn't that helpful when it comes to enforcement or crafting regulations.

It is, however, a great example of the kind of device being discussed in the article. Sold as a "class 2 e-bike" but with a software toggle to let it hit 70mph at will. However, I would argue that in many jurisdictions (such as Connecticut) it still doesn't legally qualify as an e-bike even with the software limiter because it has a >750w motor.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#73

Post by pizzalife »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #52
pizzalife wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern? Because it would go too fast.

The alternative that follows the rule is a 40kg motorcycle that can do 4kW. Is there really going to be a significant speed difference?

The 20kg bike would accelerate roughly twice as quickly as the 40kg bike. Accelerating super quickly is not safe.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#74

Post by Dylan16807 »

throw0101c wrote: post #65
Dylan16807 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can compare a car and a motorcycle that easily. Especially at high speeds where air resistance is so important.

The current-gen Miata is 135 kW (181 hp; 184 PS): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5_(ND) It's about ~third of the weight of the RAV4. Which one do you think accelerates from zero faster (not even reaching "high speeds")?

Now adjust things so the driver weighs more than the car and we'll be close to motorcycle territory. And even here it's like 6 versus 8 seconds for 0 to 60.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#75

Post by arp242 »

mPReDiToR wrote: post #23

Unless a cop actually sees you doing a ridiculous speed they aren't going to check for P/W ratio or motor output Electric scooters are illegal in the UK, but police don't have time or inclination to stop their widespread usage on public roads, and you're safe to ride past them unless you're doing something stupid. So many things like this have people getting away with it that the laws are just ignored eventually. Whe…

> Electric scooters are illegal in the UK

Technically they're not illegal, but they are classified as motor vehicles and require a driving license, tax, and insurance. However, no one actually offers insurance, and I guess you'll also run in to problems registering them for tax, so they are effectively illegal.

This is just silly and because of a 1980s legal definition of "motor vehicle": "a mechanically propelled vehicle intended or adapted for use on roads". Non-enforcement seems like a good thing in lieu of parliament amending this unintended and silly classification. This is exactly what happened here in Ireland and some other countries.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#76

Post by Dylan16807 »

pizzalife wrote: post #73
Dylan16807 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The alternative that follows the rule is a 40kg motorcycle that can do 4kW. Is there really going to be a significant speed difference?

The 20kg bike would accelerate roughly twice as quickly as the 40kg bike. Accelerating super quickly is not safe.

A motorcycle accelerating at full speed without a rider is very dangerous no matter how many horsepower. I don't think that should be the test method.

Also twice the power doesn't give you twice the acceleration as you pick up speed. Each mph takes more energy than the last.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#77

Post by Sayrus »

shkkmo wrote: post #63
Sayrus wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I realized that and edited my comment with a link for one with pedals, bicycle saddle and 10kW power.

You've misunderstood that law. > By law, an electric bicycle is a bicycle that (1) has operable foot pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts and (2) qualifies as a class 1, class 2, or class 3 bicycle https://www.cga.ct.gov/2024/rpt/pdf/2024-R-0154.pdf

Thanks, I also edited the answer. That also gives context to the sentence in the article:

> Connecticut already uses the common three-class system that codifies legal e-bikes as up to 20 mph (32 km/h) and 750W (one horsepower) for Class 1 and 2, or up to 28 mph (45 km/h) for Class 3 e-bikes.

So these device are already not street-legal and not allowed to be sold as e-bikes, right? Even at 30mph they aren't classified as e-bikes. Were they previously in an undefined zone and are now classified as motor-driven cycle/motorcycle?

Then I don't understand the claim that this will change anything since "an electric motor of less than 750 watts" cannot provide anywhere near even 50MPH on a bike-sized device.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#78

Post by throw0101c »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #74
throw0101c wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current-gen Miata is 135 kW (181 hp; 184 PS): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mazda_MX-5_(ND) It's about ~third of the weight of the RAV4. Which one do you think accelerates from zero faster (not even reaching "high speeds")?

Now adjust things so the driver weighs more than the car and we'll be close to motorcycle territory. And even here it's like 6 versus 8 seconds for 0 to 60.

So the Miata gets there faster even with a >20% power disadvantage. I think that shows why power-weight is important.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#79

Post by zaphar »

RhysU wrote: post #56
zaphar wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything on wheels is going to go downhill real fast. Terminal velocity under gravity is not what we use for classifying vehicles because it doesn't serve as a useful bucket because it's not a feature of the average mechanism of propulsion. And that's the part we care about. The presence of top athletes doesn't change the average users experience of the vehicle.

So, if I put a pro rider on a bicycle you're cool with me having them scream around crowded areas? Traffic regulations are fundamentally about tail events. Most of the time, vehicular traffic is boring. The right metric is kinetic energy. But, it'd be unpopular for speed limits to depend upon vehicle mass. Or, in the case of bicycles vehicle and rider mass since the rider mass isn't negligible.

Reckless endangerment covers the case of pro-riders being idiots. Classification of the vehicle should rely on the vehicle's properties instead of the operators capabilities.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#80

Post by daft_pink »

habosa wrote: post #18

I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill. I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but…

FYI, there are actual laws setting limits on bikes. Generally most places in the USA will allow a Class 1 or Class 2 e-bike to be ridden anywhere a bike can be ridden legally and some allow Class 3 with more restrictions. Class 1 is pedal assist maximum 20 mph assisted and class 2 throttle assist up to 20 mph with pedal assist allowed and if you pedal harder yourself it’s okay. Class 3 is pedal assist up to 28 mph, but this is not accepted as a bike in many places or has more restrictions. Anything else would likely be a motorcycle or moped and subject to licensing/insurance/lights & mirrors/etc requirements and would not be allowed in most park/trails/bike paths/etc or only usable on private property like a go kart.

However, in practice, no one is enforcing these laws and it’s difficult, because there is no easy way for the police to determine what class a bike is and no authority providing you with a license plate to verify the class that would limit your access if you didn’t have it. The government has basically accepted that most ebikes conform to the ebike laws most of the time. However, I believe many rental e-bikes like Lime/Bird/etc do conform to the law and are Class 1 or Class 2 bikes.

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