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'70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

electrek.co

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Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#31

Post by shkkmo »

rib3ye wrote: post #6
zaphar wrote: post #2

That's not an e-bike. That's an electric motorcycle.

Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Edit: I am not saying these things aren't crazy fast and dangerous, but if you go into an electric motorcycle store and they try to sell you an e-bike with a pedal assist, it's obvious they are not the same thing. The form-factor is just different.

> That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed.

Not legally.

I would argue that the presence of pedals matters much less than the power and weight of the device when it comes to how it should be regulated. Power and weight are what create the risks that the laws exist to regulate.

If you have an ~80 pound device with hardware that can do >40mph on flat ground, it should not regulated like a bicycle.

Edit: To make my point clearer, I think the focus on top speed in a bit of a red herring. High speeds can be achieved on anything with enough hill/drafting/etc. The rate at which the object can gain kinetic energy is what matters. Devices that gain kinetic energy quickly are much more dangerous to operate. Thus the combination of Power x Weight is what the regulations should focus on. There is such a plethora and proliferation of different device types, any other type of distinction can't keep up and will either leave safety gaps or unnecessarily curtail critical innovation in personal transport technology.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#32

Post by Night_Thastus »

Sayrus wrote: post #14
potato3732842 wrote: post #5

Going 30 on anything that resembles a bike in geometry and construction is not a leisurely activity one engages in casually. 40 is pushing it, 50 you know is unsafe. 70 is a publicity stunt in a controlled environment. Yes, I know road bikes (with or without electricity) hit high speeds in certain situations, but those situations are away from traffic or potential traffic, a big downhill in the middle of nowhere or a…

Let's face it, an e-bike that goes to 70 rarely looks like a bike. For instance: - https://hpcbikes.com/products/revolution-xx - https://www.eridepros.com/pro-sr (no bicycle pedals) I was able to find some 60MPH e-bikes that looks somewhat like a very bulky bike but even then, it's still closer to a motorcycle with pedals.

It's a motorcycle that in theory can be pedaled manually.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#33

Post by ghaff »

habosa wrote: post #18

I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill. I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but…

I sometimes sit in sidewalk seating at a restaurant in Cambridge near a small theater I have a subscription to. The (protected) bike lane in front is a pretty horrifying combination of conventional bikes, ebikes, things that I assume are high powered ebikes but look almost like motor scooters, escooters, pedestrians caught in the crosshairs, etc. And a ton of the vehicles just blowing through the lights at the next intersection because they're more or less bikes and that's pretty common behavior.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#34

Post by shkkmo »

Spivak wrote: post #26
vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. I think this makes sense. The distinction between bike and motorcycle should be based on capability. So if you reduce the speed of a motorcycle you could argue that it’s a bike now.

I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking. The thing you want is a speed limit and you got it. Clearly bike riders prefer a capped large motor because you get better acceleration and responsiveness. If you modify it to go outside of its class then that's your problem if you get caught.

> I personally don't see a difference between large motor with capped speed and a small motor legally speaking.

Try getting hit by them, you'll feel a pretty big difference. My Zero in a custom riding mode that limits its speed will do way more damage than any e-bike at the same speed.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#35

Post by potato3732842 »

mPReDiToR wrote: post #23

Unless a cop actually sees you doing a ridiculous speed they aren't going to check for P/W ratio or motor output Electric scooters are illegal in the UK, but police don't have time or inclination to stop their widespread usage on public roads, and you're safe to ride past them unless you're doing something stupid. So many things like this have people getting away with it that the laws are just ignored eventually. Whe…

>Unless a cop actually sees you doing a ridiculous speed they aren't going to check for P/W ratio or motor output

Which in practice means that anyone who doesn't pass a vibe check can be stopped for a fishing expedition and the officer can say in the report "well, they appeared to be going faster, oops".

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#36

Post by zaphar »

RhysU wrote: post #19
vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. I think this makes sense. The distinction between bike and motorcycle should be based on capability. So if you reduce the speed of a motorcycle you could argue that it’s a bike now.

Capability is a poor metric. Bicycles go downhill real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles can be geared to go across the salt flats real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles, even without crazy geography or gearing, can be ridden real d…

Anything on wheels is going to go downhill real fast. Terminal velocity under gravity is not what we use for classifying vehicles because it doesn't serve as a useful bucket because it's not a feature of the average mechanism of propulsion. And that's the part we care about. The presence of top athletes doesn't change the average users experience of the vehicle.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#37

Post by californical »

habosa wrote: post #18

I ride my ebike to work every day. I love it, it's a lot more convenient than my old manual bike was (more durable, less sweating in hilly SF). I really try hard to be conscientious and not do anything on it that a very strong normal cyclist wouldn't/couldn't do. I almost never have any occasion to top 20mph on it, except maybe when going down a steep hill. I don't want to advocate for more regulations on biking but…

I don’t think that a sweeping speed limit ban is helpful. FWIW, I don’t own an e-bike and have only borrowed them from other people a few times.

In the more rural, even suburban areas, it might be totally safe, even safer to go 25-30mph instead of 20, if you’re on a road with 35mph car traffic.

I agree with you for major cities, I’ve had to deal with the antisocial people who rip through crowds.. but a sweeping ban like that will limit usefulness outside of cities.

I’ve hit 30+mph on a regular bike with a strong wind at my back, and it felt fast. But not dangerous by any means - I was out on a rural country road. It’d be nice to get that “wind” from electricity, regardless of the weather, to greatly reduce the commute time between towns, without needing to drive a (more dangerous) car.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#38

Post by pizzalife »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #30
throw0101c wrote: post #13

I personally like the EU rule (168/2013) on e-bikes for this: > pedal cycles with pedal assistance which are equipped with an auxiliary electric motor having a maximum continuous rated power of less than or equal to 250 W, where the output of the motor is cut off when the cyclist stops pedalling and is otherwise progressively reduced and finally cut off before the vehicle speed reaches 25 km/h [15.5 mph] * https://en…

What's the point of the weight ratio? If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern?

> If a 20kg motorcycle can do 4kW why is that a concern?

Because it would go too fast.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#39

Post by Dylan16807 »

RhysU wrote: post #19
vjvjvjvjghv wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good question. I think this makes sense. The distinction between bike and motorcycle should be based on capability. So if you reduce the speed of a motorcycle you could argue that it’s a bike now.

Capability is a poor metric. Bicycles go downhill real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles can be geared to go across the salt flats real damn fast. The top speed of a bicycle is largely limited by how foolish the person atop it is and the local geography. Bicycles, even without crazy geography or gearing, can be ridden real d…

How fast can a normal person riding a normal-style bike with modified gears go across the salt flats?

I feel like it's obvious that capability would be measured with a fixed level of user input on a fixed course/dynamo.

Re: '70 MPH e-bikes' prompt one US state to change its laws

#40

Post by [deleted] »

rib3ye wrote: post #6
zaphar wrote: post #2

That's not an e-bike. That's an electric motorcycle.

Take a look at the Super73 mentioned in the piece: It has pedals directly connected to a chain. That's the difference between a motorcycle and an e-bike, not speed. Edit: I am not saying these things aren't crazy fast and dangerous, but if you go into an electric motorcycle store and they try to sell you an e-bike with a pedal assist, it's obvious they are not the same thing. The form-factor is just different.

[deleted]
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