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A Dust Over India

postmasculine.com

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Re: A Dust Over India

#71
post #34

Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to. Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of people to development, since less development is required to sustain one person's resource utilization. Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of th…

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I come across articles and opinions like this all the time and always feel a little offended, but I do not know exactly what triggers that. Maybe its because I notice the progress happening, the hard work people put in, only to read articles and opinions that portray the situation so negatively.

Maybe you should let that emotion go, it will inevitably affect your thinking.

Re: A Dust Over India

#73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surely the belief in karma/reincarnation and the caste system are mutually reinforcing on some level though? EDIT: But the part about it being "bad karma" to help some people and not others, that definitely sounds like somebody has misunderstood somewhere.

Well, the caste system exists and the inequalities exist - but they exist purely due to economic and political incentives. Belief in karma and reincarnation has got nothing to do with it. And even the victims of this system know this.

I want to nitpick slightly, if I may, albeit the point is not related to the general discussion of poverty in India.

There is also some modern, relevant benefits to identifying someone's caste: it is an indicator that someone comes from a similar cultural or religious upbringing. That you speak similar dialects of Hindi. This is important when, say, marrying.

This says nothing of the caste system as institutional discrimination, but it's worth mentioning that caste is not "purely" an economic/political bit of culture.

Re: A Dust Over India

#74

Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to. Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of people to development, since less development is required to sustain one person's resource utilization. Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of th…

This comment says more about India than the original article. Corruption? America's as corrupt (it's not). Poverty? They don't need houses - it's always balmy. Terrible land rules? It's humanitarian. Terrible infrastructure? It's difficult. Garbage and pollution? Well don't breathe it!

A (very wealthy) Indian relative of mine once explained to me that while Indians may come rich and poor they all have greater pride in their intrinsic existence. Thus, the poor Indian has more dignity than a rich American.

The Indian situation isn't one that I believe will be developed out of soon because the underlying reasons for much of the filth is cultural. The problems aren't seen as problems but as a Western perspective's mis-interpretation of the essence of reality.

Re: A Dust Over India

#75
Rich. No other adjectives can convincingly describe the plethora that is India. It is an experience that will kill you, and leave you discovering life – discovering you. Take your senses on a ride with its varied geographies that will raise you - with the tranquility to numb your thoughts - above the highest Himalayas and send you dipping to the complex of seas - angry some and transparent the others – not before it coats a layer of earth with the never ending plains on your humility and etches the burns of beauty on its deserts delving into the east so green as though you have travelled through the womb of nature. And all that changes the way your body smells, your senses perceive, your brain thinks. The sheer variety of a cocktail of experiences that is shoved towards you – from the dead stone caves of the Deccan to the fragrances of spice bazaars fighting among themselves, from the historical makeup of its traditions to the coexistence of its diversity layered with the shine of modernity all glued together by the religious cores of its life, from chaotic noises of it populated cities to places pure virgin, unexplored, from the finest of luxuries that the world has to offer to the free meals of a temple, from the complexity of languages to the simplicity of the hearts of its people – jostles your entire being. You learn that taste of food is not by its ingredients but by the hand that cooks it, that vivacity of culture is not in the art but in the artist that practices it, that the law of the land in not by civilization but by the embedded civilization, that modernity is not evolved from the old but that new is just a function of time and that time has varying speeds & that it can even stand still or fly by - that relationships do not necessarily need people to know each other. You may spend all your money but might not be able even cover India’s peripheries or you may travel all of India for almost no money. You may be astonished by the dynamics of families; be warned - strangers may seem too eager to help. You may follow the trails of most ancient of religions or you may stroll through shiny city culture. India doesn’t need a preparation. Indian accepts you as you are. Sometimes India will scare you. Sometimes India will confuse you. Sometimes it will demand patience and sometimes it will test your sense-of-humor. Other times, all of it would get so overwhelming that you would want it all to just stop. And yet there will be times when you will let the experience flow through you. Most people come to India in search of peace, some inner philosophy or finding religion. You will be escorted to the most tranquilizing places on this planet, to the most psychedelic aura that the nature has to offer and to the most comprehensive of eastern philosophies. But that will not quench you. And then, in the busiest of the moments, amongst the crowded of places, you may discover ‘it’. Leaving India, it may not be certain that you will have your answers but it can be assured that you will be at peace – with yourself. Incredible. Absolutely unforgettable.

Re: A Dust Over India

#76

I am an Indian and I find this piece quite authentic. However, the OP and most of the other foreigners who visit India, visit places or deal with people that are known to be hostile. I, as an Indian, will be utterly shocked if I visit a ghetto in downtown Detroit. Heck, there are more chances of getting mugged or shot in such ghetto. However, I will not visit such places as they are known to be hostile. India is a we…

"I, as an Indian, will be utterly shocked if I visit a ghetto in downtown Detroit."

Compared to what the OP described, a "ghetto" in old Detroit would be a paradise.

Also, just to point out, don't talk trash about a town unless you've been there. Detroit is finally bringing itself out of the pit. Lots of new energy running around. It's on the rise. Maybe you should visit?

Re: A Dust Over India

#77
post #49

I think I understand now why India has historically been the place that produced enlightenment, at a greater rate than other countries have.... Out of necessity. It's hard to live in an environment like that without witnessing the game of life (the suffering), and hopefully, existing out of it. And I don't mean the suffering of the poor, but also of the rich, the middle class, and everyone else there, that's a piece…

Well, keep in mind that India was fairly rich till before the colonisation. From wikipedia[1], according to the Indian Prime Minister: "There is no doubt that our grievances against the British Empire had a sound basis. As the painstaking statistical work of the Cambridge historian Angus Maddison has shown, India's share of world income collapsed from 22.6% in 1700, almost equal to Europe's share of 23.3% at that tim…

This mostly has to do with the gap introduced by the Industrial Revolution the second half of the 19th century. If you follow the rise of Germany leading up to World War I, you will notice that the country was steadily becoming richer as industrial machinery was introduced from Britain (where most of the early inventions took place). Something similar occurred in the United States as well. India, on the other hand, is in many respects still a pre-Industrial country (nevermind that the government has access to nuclear weapons).

Re: A Dust Over India

#78

Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to. Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of people to development, since less development is required to sustain one person's resource utilization. Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of th…

"Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than the US government." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_India http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/18/world/asia/18iht-letter18.... http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2091100,00.htm... People are holding hunger strikes to stand up against the corruption. When was the last time that happened in the US? You are rationalizing away al…

My comparison with the US was not intended to indicate complacency about the status quo. Your comment about hunger strikes underscores my point. It is completely inappropriate for any citizen of the modern US to express any indignation about the democratic process going on in another country.

In the US we are given a standard explanation about other countries: Women are mistreated there, children and the poor are victims, governments there are corrupt and ineffective, sectarian or criminal gangs run things, etc. We as enlightened Americans are supposed to feel indignant, and we're supposed to support bold action that will free the people in question from their oppressive circumstances, since the people themselves are too dis-empowered to do it for themselves, too clueless to realize they should, etc.

The author's story was strongly influenced by this kind of explanation, right down to the indignation he ever-so-confidently expresses.

This is why I mentioned a few aspects of American society that ought to put things into perspective a bit. If someone is drawn to indignation and feels inspired to allow his life to be motivated by its sharp pangs, he should look closely at the environment he knows most about -- his own city or possibly his own country.

The narrative/explanation above is used to promote meddling in other countries and is a hallmark of neoconservative thought. The problem is that it's horribly misguided and harmful.

Re: A Dust Over India

#79

This is why I have trouble relating to my friends' problems. Oh someone at work got a bigger raise than you? Excuse me while I laugh in your face. I'm not too good at parties. I don't know how to compartmentalize. It also bugs me that talking about this seems like a status move when it generates negative things in my life.

A human is made for happiness the same way a bird is made for flight. If people don't feel happy because they are underappreciated or their social life is lacking, I don't think that should be mocked.

Re: A Dust Over India

#80
post #62

Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to. Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of people to development, since less development is required to sustain one person's resource utilization. Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of th…

Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to. Citation? The same applies to shelter. In India, a hut made of newspaper is adequate shelter year round. Try that in the Northern US and you'll freeze. If a newspaper is enough in India, why are so many people dying of being cold year after year? https://ww…

asto wrote: WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU EVEN SAYING?

My point was about carrying capacity. Hot or cold snaps do not significantly alter the base carrying capacity of the environment w/o infrastructure.

In the US things like parking tickets, DMV fees, etc. are levied with abandon. Why use this approach to generate funds to pay for municipal workers rather than just having them extract bribes? Because the US has the infrastructure to enforce the fees, fines, and penalties. Both constitute minor confiscation of resources and are abetted by the power of the officials involved.

Your point about widows being burned alive agrees with my overall argument. It shows a parity between the two civilizations that ought to give us pause when we start feeling to indignant.

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