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A Dust Over India

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Re: A Dust Over India

#31
Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to.

Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of people to development, since less development is required to sustain one person's resource utilization.

Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of the year and without planning and infrastructure to enable it, there would be very little food available during the winter. In the US the infrastructure is a requirement for even moderate population growth.

The same applies to shelter. In India, a hut made of newspaper is adequate shelter year round. Try that in the Northern US and you'll freeze.

The result of this is that there are more poor people who do not rely as much on large scale planning and infrastructure for their basic survival.

Yes India's government is corrupt, but not all that much more corrupt than the US government.

If you want to talk about rights for the poor, in India if someone isn't using land and you set up a tent on it and start living there, you can't be evicted. The shantytowns that the author found so disturbing are actually a side-effect of India's weak property rights laws, which themselves are a result of democratic pressure from the poor to continue living where their families have lived for generations. Contrast this to the genocide the US conducted against native Americans who were in the way.

Basic infrastructure (roads, sewers) is lacking in India, but those are not easy projects to bootstrap. Bangalore has a massive sewer construction project going on now.

Frankly, it's not all that bad. Sure the garbage smells bad, but it's mostly just a matter of learning not to keep inhaling after you catch a whiff of something rank on the breeze.

If you are concerned about India's political infrastructure, notice that India's rulers are forming alliances with the US to help thwart Pakistan's nuclear ambitions. Note that once the US has a stake in one ruling party it tends to do much to prop up and empower that party, even if there are horrible human rights consequences.

When I go to India I notice the energy. People sit happily beneath a dirty tarp in a roadside food stand, enjoying Manchurian Gobi... sometimes 4 or 5 people sharing one bowl of the delicious spicy food. Smiles everywhere. These are extremely poor people. Also I notice the tiny businesses, some retail locations are only a few square feet in size but sell a variety of goods and are staffed by a single motivated shopkeeper who works 18+ hour days.

India is full of hard working people and ingenuity. I found the author's generalizations about dishonesty, etc., quite offensive.

Consider how much effort is undertaken in the US to hide poverty from view. Sadly the US ends up putting a very large percentage of its poor population in prisons and has relocated many to horrific housing projects, where the violence and horrors are contained away from view.

Consider how much effort is undertaken in the US to present the appearance of legit, non-corrupt institutions. Yet fraud abounds at all levels of government. The stuff Wikileaks exposed about the US is nothing more than fraud, dishonesty, and corruption.

Re: A Dust Over India

#32
Exaggerations abound. While I agree with aspects of poor governance and garbage accumulation and many other observations, I realized the author was out to represent a preconceived notion of a nation, when I read, "homeless people sleeping on the tarmac, the city is so crowded and disgusting that people decide they’d rather sleep on the airport runway."

I will pick on that lie to state my point. If you have been to any of the smaller metros in India, you generally get thru immigration at Mumbai before taking a flight from the domestic terminal. Getting to the domestic terminal from the international terminal is cumbersome. You are escorted in a bus operated by the Airport Authority of India, accompanied by security personel.

The aspect of the ride that is of interest is the route taken by the bus. The bus operated within the premises of the airport often running along side the tarmac and taxi way thru numerous and repeated security check-points while it meanders to or from the domestic terminal. This gives you the best view of the runways at ground level in slow speed often around 15 kmph and includes a section of the ride around the cargo terminals.

Most international airlines operate to and out of Mumbai during the night often after 12 AM. I have taken this ride on at least 3 occasions and have not seen a single individual sleeping on the tarmac on even one occasion.

What the author might be referring to could be the people you find in a semi sleep state around the terminal, more so near the cargo terminals. These are employees in the cargo section often on a break. The employees are usually uniformed and any one can observe the security batches hanging around their necks.

You would then have to assume that the intent of the author is intentional mis-representation and sensationalism. Take everything written with a large serving of salt.

Re: A Dust Over India

#33

There was little else to do after nightfall in India but get drunk. hmm... OK http://www.buzzintown.com/delhi/events/category--nightlife/i... http://delhi.burrp.com/events/Film+and+Theatre#3 an Indian will lie to your face ... they’ll hand you fake business cards and offer to sell you something that they don’t actually have, so that you’ll voluntarily empty your wallet to them on your own accord. As opposed to DecorM…

It's hard to be sympathetic when walking through Paharganj in Delhi and have hundreds of con artists just outright lying and trying to scam well meaning tourists. I won't go back to India because of it. It's one thing to pay a guy to take pictures of you at Taj, it's another to have someone be helpful then demand a tip for it.

China has a billion people too, but life there is far less horrid, dirty and bureaucratic. While the Chinese government is pretty deplorable, something is going right there, compared to India. Another problem with India is the mind-numbing Colonial-era bureaucracy -- to start a small business in India it takes months of paperwork just to get a business license. You have to get papers signed, resigned, rubber stamped by ten different offices and then pay crazy expensive bribes to everyone along the way. The problem is the government. It's an obsession with administivia at the expense of entrepreneurs.

Re: A Dust Over India

#34

Because India is close to the equator, the environment has a greater carrying capacity than the kinds of first-world, northern nations that the author is used to. Thus, for this reason alone, India is likely to have a different ratio of people to development, since less development is required to sustain one person's resource utilization. Contrast this to the US where much of the country is snow covered for 1/3 of th…

Thank you for taking the time to write this. I come across articles and opinions like this all the time and always feel a little offended, but I do not know exactly what triggers that. Maybe its because I notice the progress happening, the hard work people put in, only to read articles and opinions that portray the situation so negatively.

Re: A Dust Over India

#35
post #6
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you should honestly ask yourself how much of it is coming from your side. That may be true. But I still think that candid, unapologetic appraisals of what's wrong with developing countries may be just what the doctor ordered for things to change. I myself am an Indian and while I'm yet to see someone covered in his or her own feces in India, I'd agree with the general sentiment of that article: it's an honest, hear…

India probably needs more startups; startups that are solving Indian problems, employing Indians and if relevant expanding the solution to places outside. Despite the corruption and incompetence of the government, I believe that the government also finds itself in the same conundrum--"where to start, or what to fix first, or in what order".

And inevitably decides to fix the fact that those in power do not feel themselves to be rich enough.

Re: A Dust Over India

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you seriously think that the average Indian citizen is less politically empowered than the average American citizen?

The average Indian is likely making less than $2 a day [1] and likely illiterate with not having the ability to read or write ANYTHING[2]. Is a dirt poor, illiterate person "politically empowered"? [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literacy_in_India (the numbers here are severely underrepresented - there is consensus among most NGOs that more than 50% illiteracy prevai…

Why does one have to be literate to be politically active? Do you think that most US voters base their political decisions (or their decision whether or not to vote) on something they read?

Re: A Dust Over India

#37
I watched the endless poverty scroll by like a demented video game. I had an overwhelming urge to stop at an ATM and withdraw 25,000 Rupees and start handing money out to people at random.

"Nothing should be given free. Anything that is given free has no value. " - Padma Venkataraman

In May of this year, I spent time in Karnataka and Tamil Nadu.

The exchange rate during my travels was roughly 53 Rupees : 1 US Dollar. So I can definitely understand how tempting it can be to "do the math" and rationalize that giving X Rupees to random person will "help". But it's absolutely not a sustainable solution to the core and underlying problem, and might even be perpetuating it.

I "get" the concept of jugaad. My small solution was to not give Rupees away, but to tip well: anybody who seemed to be working on improving their economic situation. (Tipping is not normal practice for most Indians, but I figured it was better than handouts.)

This video can be hard to watch, but it's an interesting film about an organization called Rising Star Outreach ( http://www.risingstaroutreach.org ) that is working on helping of the "worst" of India's beggars, those who afflicted with Hansen's Disease (AKA Leprosy) http://byutv.org/watch/d0f942b2-6b4f-4923-9f88-7ad8fde4a01c

Some interesting tidbits from the video:

- "70 percent of the world's leprosy is in India."

- "People with leprosy are treated as untouchables ... Every month, people from the leprosy colony travel to the city to beg. Once they have enough money to buy food and clothing for the month, they go back to the colony."

- "Begging reduces people to their lowest level. The worse you look, the better you're going to be successful at begging."

But the video has a somewhat happy ending: it is demonstrating a work in progress, and general proof that giving people a way to sustain themselves economically via microloans really does work.

As far as the general population goes, India is an amazing country: resourceful, intelligent. But its biggest challenge will be its ability to cope with population growth.

Re: A Dust Over India

#38
I am an Indian and I find this piece quite authentic. However, the OP and most of the other foreigners who visit India, visit places or deal with people that are known to be hostile.

I, as an Indian, will be utterly shocked if I visit a ghetto in downtown Detroit. Heck, there are more chances of getting mugged or shot in such ghetto. However, I will not visit such places as they are known to be hostile.

India is a weird place and to survive you need to live as Indians live. Some insights -

a) Yes, we have highest number of beggars. But most of them are cheats. Most of them will walk away if you offer them a job instead of money or food. Also, a lot of them work for beggar mafias.

b) They say that all of those 33 crore Hindu Gods, Buddha and Allah have left India ages ago. Religions are more customary than spiritual and Indians follow 'em just for the sake of customs. It's a common sight to see a young guy driving by a temple reciting a few shlokas while driving and offer a customary mini version of prayer.

People who come to India on a spiritual tour make me laugh. If you think that you can attain enlightenment or get more spiritual by travelling thousands of miles and spending a couple of weeks at a 500$/night resort near Haridwar, then you need some serious help.

c) Tourists buy "Indian" stuff that no Indian buys. The clutches or carpets or the wooden elephants are made specially for foreign tourists and are freakingly overpriced. The best way to buy Indian stuff, would be to go to regular markets with a local friend.

d) Garbage is a big problem. Its in our nature to litter. Take an Indian to US or Australia and he will not spit or litter. While the same person might even pee on a street back in India. The only option is to live/stay in relatively cleaner localities.

e) Drivers, hotel staff, guides, store keepers and public servants are dishonest because they are virtually unaccountable to anyone and the legal system ain't efficient enough to nab the dishonest. A "x" star restaurant can continue to function despite serving cockroaches or hair strands in their dishes. Apparently, identifying the trait of dishonesty is easier if you know the local lingo/culture.

People know a lot of about American culture because of Hollywood and American sitcoms. I am not an expert in American culture, but I can identify whether a person is playing me. I can not do that in any other country (say Italy).

Same logic applies to foreigners who visit India. You either need to know a few things about Indian culture beforehand or you need to spend some more time here.

Re: A Dust Over India

#39
This is why I have trouble relating to my friends' problems.

Oh someone at work got a bigger raise than you? Excuse me while I laugh in your face.

I'm not too good at parties. I don't know how to compartmentalize.

It also bugs me that talking about this seems like a status move when it generates negative things in my life.

Re: A Dust Over India

#40

I think I understand now why India has historically been the place that produced enlightenment, at a greater rate than other countries have.... Out of necessity. It's hard to live in an environment like that without witnessing the game of life (the suffering), and hopefully, existing out of it. And I don't mean the suffering of the poor, but also of the rich, the middle class, and everyone else there, that's a piece…

I would like to point out that the extreme poverty that India is known for today is pretty much a legacy of the British Raj. The 'enlightenment' you are talking about came much before that, when India was a much more peaceful and prosperous area.

So the 'Out of necessity' argument you made is pointless.

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