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EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

reuters.com

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Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#71

Post by garaetjjte »

Etherlord87 wrote: post #50
garaetjjte wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Make an experiment and try to predict what would happen otherwise. Or just read my prediction below. Countries who don't force people to fight are: - much weaker in the case of war, - with such policies not being (a well hidden) secret, an attractive target for a hostile country. So such countries are going to statistically be attacked more often, and statistically lose more often. So if you don't counter those stati…

I don't have perfect solution, but "to avoid being defeated by evil we must become evil ourselves" is not really the point. There are things that are lose-lose, making war worse for both sides. For things like chemical weapons we have treaties banning it, while for conscription all politicians are quiet about while pretending to care about human rights.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#72

Post by heroiccocoa »

diordiderot wrote: post #23
heroiccocoa wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with your comment. Unpreparedness is one thing, but you paint a picture of weakness and reliance. Why are there no Dutch F-35s or French warships in Ukraine? Where are the British special forces? Let alone the non-NATO countries of Switzerland Austria, Cyprus, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden. Some NATO members have huge militaries, albeit with many NATO commitments, i.e. not even close to being utilized to t…

Incredibly out of touch comment. Dutch have contributed massively relative to gdp. The British special forces trained Ukraines special forces after the war started. Sweden is in NATO. And you can't bomb a nuclear state.

The NL have contributed massively. I never meant that they didn't, I was selecting some powerful, random countries with still untapped resources to counter your comment that implied weakness. It was not at all my intention to diminish their contributions (consider that I didn't even mention those of Poland and the Baltics; even though I hate using GDP for this, but that is another discussion...): Again, my point was that, relative to what I imagine Europe's real military might is, it has not even really gotten started compared to what we could be doing, if only we weren't so scared of nukes. Just think of how we could have annihilated the soft target that was the disorganized 64 km Kyiv convoy, back in 2022. A quick search yielded that we have 1703 fighter jets in the EU-28, let alone the large warships, and who knows how many other assets. If we declared war (I'm not a lawyer, but it would easy to prove casus belli, and have jus ad bellum, given Russia's literal aggression and genocide). We could be attacking them along their entire (gigantic) border all the way to the east that they couldn't possibly hope to defend being so spread out. It would look totally different than the "weak" image we are projecting now because we aren't at war.

Sweden is not yet in NATO. They are on the verge of it, with Orban signing approval today, but Hungary has not yet formally submitted their instrument of ratification. Details matter when correcting people.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#73

Post by heroiccocoa »

Etherlord87 wrote: post #54
heroiccocoa wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with your comment. Unpreparedness is one thing, but you paint a picture of weakness and reliance. Why are there no Dutch F-35s or French warships in Ukraine? Where are the British special forces? Let alone the non-NATO countries of Switzerland Austria, Cyprus, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden. Some NATO members have huge militaries, albeit with many NATO commitments, i.e. not even close to being utilized to t…

Well, the nuclear threat is no small threat. It's possibly humanity-ending. Specifically the nuclear winter. It's amazing and I attribute it largely to American intelligence, how much russia was damaged with "only" a 10s advance on the Doomsday Clock (we're at 23:58:30 now).

Absolutely. But it is responsible for our weak response, not our weak/undprepared militaries.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#74

Post by Staple_Diet »

seydor wrote: post #20

Sure, we will hire a few thousand contractors to form a network of committees and prepare multiple sustainability plans and guidelines for the next seven years. We will also declare war illegal and fine violators with 70% of their gdp. Whoever dares to challenge european sovereignty will be met with the collective wrath of our cookie prompts The EU is not only materially incapable of war mode (too many second rate ca…

>One of its members is occupied by a nato country, and hasn't been supported when threatened.

Can you explain?

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#75

Post by Staple_Diet »

stalfosknight wrote: post #18

Maybe now some of our European friends will start pulling their weight with respect to funding NATO.

NATO funding is in the realm of a few million per year for administrative costs, and all members make these payments.

Perhaps you are referring to the requirement for NATO members to spend minimum 2% GDP on their own Military? In which case other responses explain that, on average, this is already occuring.

Further to that, percentage of GDP is a problematic metric to measure spending, as a member could in fact increase their military spending year on year, but if their spending increase doesn't keep up with their GDP increases then it can appear that they are spending less.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#76

Post by verdverm »

verdverm wrote: post #59
berner wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe they will build out their own military industry causing the US to no longer have a much larger technological capability than it actually pays for from its own GDP and face more competition in weapon sales.

This is already happening. Poland & South Korea entered into a significant deal last year. SK is working with Poland to build SK mil hardware in Poland, which iirc, is a first for them. There are speculations that this is SK breaking into the EU market for tanks & spg. Drones are reshaping conventional war at unprecedented speeds. Many things need to be rethought. Big ticket items and air defense are notable examples…

Here's a new video from CSIS on this very topic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8kJrQ8TO2g

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#77

Post by type0 »

The_Colonel wrote: post #40
jevoten wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will you move your whole social life with you A small price compared to dying in war. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but if you have no attachment to your country and people beyond it being a comfortable place to live, that's the choice most will make.

Let me present you an alternative. Europe can build up a credible defense capability which will provide a strong deterrence to Russia. In that case you don't have to die in the trenches and you don't have to spend your life running away from the aggressor. Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland (after suffering horrible losses in the Winter war), even though both had their own claims on…

it's a bit more nuanced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#78

Post by type0 »

argentier wrote: post #66
peutetre wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course it's serious. It's serious enough for Ukrainians to be dying every day for the defense of their nation. Russians are dying every day too. Putin can save many Russian lives with a simple order to get out of Ukraine. Putin plainly values his vanity over the lives of the Russian people.

It's about Russian security, not Putin's vanity. Please try to raise the level of discourse beyond the boogyman propaganda so beloved of Hollywood. This is serious, deadly serious, and seeing it treated so lightly is painful.

I'm hearing Russians will feel secure when they conquer all the former USSR territory

> boogyman propaganda so beloved of Hollywood.

not hollywood, they say it on Russian state tv, if you take your head out of your arse and manage to watch and listen you'll see it loud and clearly

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#79

Post by type0 »

hackandthink wrote: post #27
The_Colonel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's incredibly patronizing. Those silly Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, let me explain them what they should do. What's so wrong living under Russian yoke anyway? Russian ballet looks nice, it can't be that bad.

Fighting to the last Ukrainian is even more patronizing.

Real patronizing is not helping your friends with weapons after you promised to do so

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#80

Post by type0 »

torlok wrote: post #12
lifestyleguru wrote: post #7

Too late to buy EU defence stocks, too late to buy real estate, too late to simply stop getting intimate with Russia (are Germans still smirking?), with current economy nobody is getting a new job either. What have you done, Europe.

I live close to the border with Ukraine and I have no idea what you're talking about. Beyond it being a little harder to get an apartament due to the influx of Ukrainian migrants, it's business as usual. And I've not heard of any job market woes. The worst thing right now, and since a while, is farmers getting shafted by cheap grain imports from Ukraine due to lax control at the border, no tracking, and no punishment…

> is farmers getting shafted by cheap grain imports from Ukraine due to lax control at the border, no tracking, and no punishments for buyers.

they say that and yet much larger traffic of grain from Russia somehow doesn't hurt those farmers?! maybe it's because a lot of it is stolen Ukrainian grain so everyone should be hush shush about it

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