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EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

reuters.com

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Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#31

Post by riku_iki »

hackandthink wrote: post #13
The_Colonel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being "defence friendly" means also cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. Forget arms industry or military budget as a percent of GDP. The main problem is that Europe lacks the fighting spirit (with some exceptions like Poland). Countries like Germany will fold / capitulate to any demands if they suffer thousands of casualties.

I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. So many people died, for loosing later. If they wait too long there won't be any deal.

> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits

Ukraine made lots of deals with Russia about all kinds of cease fires since 2014, they didn't help with anything.

Putin will collect more strength, and grab whatever he decide and will be allowed to grab.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#32

Post by greg_V »

TillE wrote: post #4

There was an incredibly stubborn post-Cold War "end of history" complacency in Europe that really should have ended after the annexation of Crimea in 2014. Instead it lasted until the full invasion in 2022. What's been starkly revealed since is that Europe is woefully unprepared to respond to any kind of aggression, and aside from France's nuclear weapons, wholly reliant on America. At some point you have to get seri…

That's not complacency, that's a feature. The key to peace in Europe is the unified free trade zone on one hand, but on the other it's also disarmament while relying on NATO. Besides putting territorial questions aside, one of the main requirements of joining NATO was to discontinue the draft! The entire security failure is by design, one that has been made a long time ago when the US force was way more capable and threatening in their stance. The annexation of Crimea was in a way calling that stance a bluff, and now everybody is juggling the question of rearmament like a hot potato. Because we were all calm when the saying was that no two countries which had McDonalds would go to war against one another - and then they did, and now we all have McDonalds but we don't have standing combat capable armies besides NATO operable specialized arms for a good reason.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#33

Post by riku_iki »

hackandthink wrote: post #26
The_Colonel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?

I would have been the first to leave Ukraine. (I dodged the draft in Germany) And I'm fine with all the Ukrainians in Germany who do not want to fight. (and I would welcome Russians who do not want to fight) Ukraine has no good options. Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

> Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

many predicted Kyiv will fall in 3 days in 2022.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#34

Post by seydor »

The_Colonel wrote: post #9
rightbyte wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But the fundamental problem seem to be for the political gaist to be "defence friendly" while also not war mongering. The same few collegues I have that don't trust the politicians, the gov, collective endouvers etc with anything seem hell bent to project "we" want to die for them. It is beyond insane. If people want to lie in a trench led by Ursula ... well. Have fun.

Being "defence friendly" means also cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. Forget arms industry or military budget as a percent of GDP. The main problem is that Europe lacks the fighting spirit (with some exceptions like Poland). Countries like Germany will fold / capitulate to any demands if they suffer thousands of casualties.

It s not that european nations arent aggressive (unfortunately nationalism is only sleeping in Europe, not dead). But the idea of collective european nation only appeals to the 3-4 core countries. Most eu nations have a different notion of national interests. Even with Ukraine which is supported by all, the level of support and expectations vary very widely

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#35

Post by The_Colonel »

hackandthink wrote: post #27
The_Colonel wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's incredibly patronizing. Those silly Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, let me explain them what they should do. What's so wrong living under Russian yoke anyway? Russian ballet looks nice, it can't be that bad.

Fighting to the last Ukrainian is even more patronizing.

Parroting Kremlin propaganda, nice.

It's the same spirit, Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, they just mindlessly obey orders to die for their NATO overlords.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#36

Post by berner »

stalfosknight wrote: post #18

Maybe now some of our European friends will start pulling their weight with respect to funding NATO.

Maybe they will build out their own military industry causing the US to no longer have a much larger technological capability than it actually pays for from its own GDP and face more competition in weapon sales.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#37

Post by stalfosknight »

berner wrote: post #36
stalfosknight wrote: post #18

Maybe now some of our European friends will start pulling their weight with respect to funding NATO.

Maybe they will build out their own military industry causing the US to no longer have a much larger technological capability than it actually pays for from its own GDP and face more competition in weapon sales.

Your comment is probably sarcastic, but I think this new world disorder we slipping into will necessitate a more muscular Europe working in tandem with the US to counter our common enemies.

I would welcome a Europe that takes what is going on more seriously instead of hoping another pansy-ass raft of sanctions will make Putin or Xi shudder in fear.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#38

Post by kelipso »

The_Colonel wrote: post #24
torlok wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for people to tell an invaded nation, with countless atrocities commited against them, to just give up and move on.

It's incredibly patronizing. Those silly Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, let me explain them what they should do. What's so wrong living under Russian yoke anyway? Russian ballet looks nice, it can't be that bad.

Plenty of countries have surrendered in the past. Like telling the Japanese they should surrender is so patronizing.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#39

Post by nebula8804 »

leereeves wrote: post #14
The_Colonel wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Being "defence friendly" means also cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. Forget arms industry or military budget as a percent of GDP. The main problem is that Europe lacks the fighting spirit (with some exceptions like Poland). Countries like Germany will fold / capitulate to any demands if they suffer thousands of casualties.

Nobody wants to lie in the trenches to protect other people's wealth, but that's what usually happens. The poor are sent to fight and die, or to return home to poverty and disability if they survive. I'm amazed anyone is willing to sign up to risk their life for $2K/month, even here in the US where military service has long been glorified.

As with many things Gen Z is leading the way in breaking the mold (in a good way in my opinion)

[1]:https://www.wavy.com/news/military/u-s-military-sees-record-...

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#40

Post by The_Colonel »

jevoten wrote: post #29
The_Colonel wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will your whole family and friends run too? Will you move your whole social life with you or are you ready to accept your life will be torn apart? Once Germany gets submitted without a fight, how long will it take until Italy is attacked? I mean, with this "running away" philosophy it's pretty easy to take countries without facing a resistance now.

> Will you move your whole social life with you A small price compared to dying in war. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but if you have no attachment to your country and people beyond it being a comfortable place to live, that's the choice most will make.

Let me present you an alternative. Europe can build up a credible defense capability which will provide a strong deterrence to Russia. In that case you don't have to die in the trenches and you don't have to spend your life running away from the aggressor.

Nazi Germany did not invade Switzerland, USSR did not invade Finland (after suffering horrible losses in the Winter war), even though both had their own claims on them, because the costs of such an adventure were considered too high. A big part of this deterrence was a population willing to fight to defend their homeland.

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