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EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

reuters.com

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Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#21

Post by ajb »

The_Colonel wrote: post #9
rightbyte wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure. But the fundamental problem seem to be for the political gaist to be "defence friendly" while also not war mongering. The same few collegues I have that don't trust the politicians, the gov, collective endouvers etc with anything seem hell bent to project "we" want to die for them. It is beyond insane. If people want to lie in a trench led by Ursula ... well. Have fun.

Being "defence friendly" means also cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. Forget arms industry or military budget as a percent of GDP. The main problem is that Europe lacks the fighting spirit (with some exceptions like Poland). Countries like Germany will fold / capitulate to any demands if they suffer thousands of casualties.

I'm sorry, but this is rubbish. For example, the UK citizenry was almost completely pacifist two years before world war II, much more than Germany is now, and for stronger reasons; having lost a huge number of men during world war I. It didn't take the population very long at all to change its ideas once it was clear what was going to happen. People make shallow remarks. You can't use that to predict what they will do when the chips are down.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#22

Post by jevoten »

The_Colonel wrote: post #16
jevoten wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> cultivating the mentality that lying in the trenches for your country/culture/values might be necessary. That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform, because that's not something anyone is willing to die for. It means cultivating the dreaded nationalism.

> That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform Is it just that, or does it perhaps protect also other rights? Is the economic prosperity the only reason one might prefer living in Germany over Russia?

Point taken. But what about in Germany over Canada? Or Italy? Or Spain, or Australia, or the US, or New Zealand, or UK, or Iceland, or Taiwan, or Japan or... there are lots of mostly free countries (so long as you don't engage in the growing category of hate-speech) one can run to, once freed from the concepts of homeland and nation.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#23

Post by diordiderot »

heroiccocoa wrote: post #19
TillE wrote: post #4

There was an incredibly stubborn post-Cold War "end of history" complacency in Europe that really should have ended after the annexation of Crimea in 2014. Instead it lasted until the full invasion in 2022. What's been starkly revealed since is that Europe is woefully unprepared to respond to any kind of aggression, and aside from France's nuclear weapons, wholly reliant on America. At some point you have to get seri…

I don't agree with your comment. Unpreparedness is one thing, but you paint a picture of weakness and reliance. Why are there no Dutch F-35s or French warships in Ukraine? Where are the British special forces? Let alone the non-NATO countries of Switzerland Austria, Cyprus, Ireland, Malta, and Sweden. Some NATO members have huge militaries, albeit with many NATO commitments, i.e. not even close to being utilized to t…

Incredibly out of touch comment.

Dutch have contributed massively relative to gdp. The British special forces trained Ukraines special forces after the war started. Sweden is in NATO. And you can't bomb a nuclear state.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#24

Post by The_Colonel »

torlok wrote: post #17
hackandthink wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. So many people died, for loosing later. If they wait too long there won't be any deal.

It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for people to tell an invaded nation, with countless atrocities commited against them, to just give up and move on.

It's incredibly patronizing. Those silly Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, let me explain them what they should do. What's so wrong living under Russian yoke anyway? Russian ballet looks nice, it can't be that bad.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#25

Post by The_Colonel »

jevoten wrote: post #22
The_Colonel wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That would mean cultivating the mentality that a country is more than just an economic platform Is it just that, or does it perhaps protect also other rights? Is the economic prosperity the only reason one might prefer living in Germany over Russia?

Point taken. But what about in Germany over Canada? Or Italy? Or Spain, or Australia, or the US, or New Zealand, or UK, or Iceland, or Taiwan, or Japan or... there are lots of mostly free countries (so long as you don't engage in the growing category of hate-speech) one can run to, once freed from the concepts of homeland and nation.

Will your whole family and friends run too? Will you move your whole social life with you or are you ready to accept your life will be torn apart?

Once Germany gets submitted without a fight, how long will it take until Italy is attacked? I mean, with this "running away" philosophy it's pretty easy to take countries without facing a resistance now.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#26

Post by hackandthink »

The_Colonel wrote: post #15
hackandthink wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I lack fighting spirit, don't want to spend money for weapons and I'm not afraid of Russia (live in Germany). There is a lot of fear mongering. Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. So many people died, for loosing later. If they wait too long there won't be any deal.

> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?

I would have been the first to leave Ukraine. (I dodged the draft in Germany)

And I'm fine with all the Ukrainians in Germany who do not want to fight.

(and I would welcome Russians who do not want to fight)

Ukraine has no good options. Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#27

Post by hackandthink »

The_Colonel wrote: post #24
torlok wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It never ceases to amaze me how easy it is for people to tell an invaded nation, with countless atrocities commited against them, to just give up and move on.

It's incredibly patronizing. Those silly Ukrainians don't know what they're doing, let me explain them what they should do. What's so wrong living under Russian yoke anyway? Russian ballet looks nice, it can't be that bad.

Fighting to the last Ukrainian is even more patronizing.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#28

Post by The_Colonel »

hackandthink wrote: post #26
The_Colonel wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ukraine should make a deal instead of sacrificing people without limits. Imagine you're an Ukrainian. Is there a deal which you would not accept and rather continue fighting or would you accept literally any deal (including unconditional surrender)?

I would have been the first to leave Ukraine. (I dodged the draft in Germany) And I'm fine with all the Ukrainians in Germany who do not want to fight. (and I would welcome Russians who do not want to fight) Ukraine has no good options. Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

> Mearsheimer predicts a territorial loss of 40% and no NATO membership for the rest of Ukraine.

Losing 40% is much better than losing 100%.

(Also it's Mearsheimer, what a joke)

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#29

Post by jevoten »

The_Colonel wrote: post #25
jevoten wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Point taken. But what about in Germany over Canada? Or Italy? Or Spain, or Australia, or the US, or New Zealand, or UK, or Iceland, or Taiwan, or Japan or... there are lots of mostly free countries (so long as you don't engage in the growing category of hate-speech) one can run to, once freed from the concepts of homeland and nation.

Will your whole family and friends run too? Will you move your whole social life with you or are you ready to accept your life will be torn apart? Once Germany gets submitted without a fight, how long will it take until Italy is attacked? I mean, with this "running away" philosophy it's pretty easy to take countries without facing a resistance now.

> Will you move your whole social life with you

A small price compared to dying in war. I'm not saying it's the right choice, but if you have no attachment to your country and people beyond it being a comfortable place to live, that's the choice most will make.

Re: EU aims to shift European arms industry to 'war economy mode'

#30

Post by verdverm »

stalfosknight wrote: post #18

Maybe now some of our European friends will start pulling their weight with respect to funding NATO.

This is an outdated statistic. The EU as a whole is spending above the 2% and if you include broader items like railway improvements to facilitate moving US tanks, the number more than doubles. Some EU countries have given more than 2% to Ukraine on top of this

The Data on NATO Responsibility Sharing - CSIS

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YihXoQjnYc

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