Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Daylight Savings Time (2020)

theory.stanford.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–78 of 78 posts

Re: Daylight Savings Time (2020)

#71

Post by throw0101a »

riemannzeta wrote: post #41
seanalltogether wrote: post #26

The older I've gotten, the more I'm convinced that people don't care what the clock on the wall says, what they care about is minimizing the effects of sunrise/sunset. No one wants to be awake or get their kids awake before sunrise, and many jobs can't continue after sunset. Lifestyles will adjust forwards or backwards to match the hours in between

Exactly. Whenever I have this conversation with folks, I point out that the purpose of clocks is to keep human behavior in synch, and all that daylight saving time does is make that harder in an age in which people don't rely upon the position of the sun in the sky anymore to determine when it's time to do things. Yes, we are diurnal animals. Yes, sunlight matters to how we sleep. But why do we care whether the hands…

> The simplest solution is not only to do away with DST, but to adopt a single universal time.

The 2015 article "So You Want to Abolish Time Zones" gets regularly discussed on HN:

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8902765

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26416337

Re: Daylight Savings Time (2020)

#72

Post by throw0101a »

Uehreka wrote: post #7

I care more about sunset than sunrise, so if people are proposing to get rid of DST instead of making permanent DST I will fight them tooth and nail. I get that it's subjective, but my subjective view is that having sunlight after work is more important, and I stand by that.

> I get that it's subjective, but my subjective view is that having sunlight after work is more important, and I stand by that.

Plenty of folks that study chronobiology do not think it is subjective. The Society for Research on Biological Rhythms:

> Local and national governments around the world are currently considering the elimination of the annual switch to and from Daylight Saving Time (DST). As an international organization of scientists dedicated to studying circadian and other biological rhythms, the Society for Research on Biological Rhythms (SRBR) engaged experts in the field to write a Position Paper on the consequences of choosing to live on DST or Standard Time (ST). The authors take the position that, based on comparisons of large populations living in DST or ST or on western versus eastern edges of time zones, the advantages of permanent ST outweigh switching to DST annually or permanently. Four peer reviewers provided expert critiques of the initial submission, and the SRBR Executive Board approved the revised manuscript as a Position Paper to help educate the public in their evaluation of current legislative actions to end DST.

* https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31170882/

* https://doi.org/10.1177/0748730419854197

World Federation of Societies for Chronobiology:

> In summary, the scientific literature strongly argues against the switching between DST and Standard Time and even more so against adopting DST permanently. […]

* https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2019.0094...

* https://doi.org/10.3389/fphys.2019.00944

Article that links to various other societies and such:

* https://herf.medium.com/why-standard-time-is-better-e586b500...

* https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26416574

Re: Daylight Savings Time (2020)

#73

Post by riemannzeta »

SamBam wrote: post #60
riemannzeta wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Whenever I have this conversation with folks, I point out that the purpose of clocks is to keep human behavior in synch, and all that daylight saving time does is make that harder in an age in which people don't rely upon the position of the sun in the sky anymore to determine when it's time to do things. Yes, we are diurnal animals. Yes, sunlight matters to how we sleep. But why do we care whether the hands…

> or worry about whether whomever we had to collaborate with in a different part of the world was doing the same. How would having a single universal time solve knowing whether your collaborators were asleep or having dinner or whatever? You could have some kind of lookup table -- "Australians usually wake up around 18:00 UTC" -- but then what have you solved?

So you still need lookup table to figure out whether you're being considerate of them or not. At least you don't have to worry also that you're miscommunicating with them regarding when you want to meet! My sense is that more of the problems we have result from not understanding what time somebody is proposing. People are free to point out, after all, that that isn't a convenient time so long as they understand what is proposed accurately.

There's some possibility, in fact, that everybody living with their own local time makes it harder for people to learn how their local time works relative to others'. If we all used one universal time, we'd probably have developed an intuition for when people were sleeping in different parts of the world according to that universal time. As it is, we tend to rely on the lookup tables every time.

Re: Daylight Savings Time (2020)

#74

Post by riemannzeta »

taeric wrote: post #68
WithinReason wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With universal time you wouldn't have to do conversion when you want to determine when an event is in one time-zone when it's specified in another one.

You would if you were wanting to be kind to the folks not in your area. Would also make moving amusingly harder. You would be used to schools and business starting at time X, but you would be wrong.

Would it be harder? Maybe it would make adjusting to the fact that you live in a different longitude easier.

Re: Daylight Savings Time (2020)

#75

Post by taeric »

riemannzeta wrote: post #74
taeric wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You would if you were wanting to be kind to the folks not in your area. Would also make moving amusingly harder. You would be used to schools and business starting at time X, but you would be wrong.

Would it be harder? Maybe it would make adjusting to the fact that you live in a different longitude easier.

I mean, it wouldn't be a complete road block. But when visiting cross country, it is easy to know folks get up around eight to nine. Pretty much wherever I go. Similarly, I can check out my call will hit around five to know I will probably be interrupting meal time for families with kids.

Re: Daylight Savings Time (2020)

#76

Post by troglonoid »

phailhaus wrote: post #61
mac01021 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People say that but I'm not sure it's true. As long as they all agree about what time it is at any given moment (which is something we're not proposing to change) why do their business hours even have to line up perfectly? And to the extend that they do need to, wouldn't they just sort of figure it out over the course of a week or a month and then not have to worry about at again from that point on? Also, it would be…

> wouldn't they just sort of figure it out over the course of a week or a month and then not have to worry about at again from that point on? You'd have to re-negotiate every time you work with a new client. Are they on 9-5? Or 10-6? When can we schedule that weekly call? Businesses have no incentive to go through this headache, so they won't. We already shift our working hours twice a year with practically no issues…

> You'd have to re-negotiate every time you work with a new client. Are they on 9-5? Or 10-6? When can we schedule that weekly call? Businesses have no incentive to go through this headache, so they won't.

My experience is that these meeting coordinations still have to happen. Even within your own company, in the same office building.

Re: Daylight Savings Time (2020)

#77

Post by loonster »

Uehreka wrote: post #7

I care more about sunset than sunrise, so if people are proposing to get rid of DST instead of making permanent DST I will fight them tooth and nail. I get that it's subjective, but my subjective view is that having sunlight after work is more important, and I stand by that.

Over the long term, it doesn't matter. People will change business hours that best suite them.
Post reply on HN