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Do not compare EU salaries with the US

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Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#71

Post by rayiner »

JPKab wrote: post #57
scotty79 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life. In my uncharitable opinion US is good for earning money as a young, highly educated person and for nothing else. So go there when you are around 25, work your ass off at whoever pays the most for your skillset, spend as little as possible and bail before 35. Later you're screwed. You'll still make more and mo…

You have an incredibly inaccurate take on the US healthcare system. I live here and I'm in my late 30s with a family. My wife is a cancer survivor. My oldest son was born 3 months premature. and yet I'm not penniless and broke because my health insurance paid for everything. I'm not saying it's an ideal system and doesn't have major flaws but if you are a software engineer the scenario you are describing just isn't a…

> I'm not saying it's an ideal system and doesn't have major flaws but if you are a software engineer the scenario you are describing just isn't a thing. I'm sure it feels a lot better to tell yourself that when you realize you're being paid a quarter what you could be on the other side of the Atlantic.

Most people saying this stuff have never had to actually use the U.S. safety net. There's a lot of stuff we could fix: making medicaid enrollment automatic, extending unemployment benefits, etc. But pretending all these programs don't exist is crazy.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#72

Post by africanboy »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #55
africanboy wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money No, she actually thinks that an average (or below average, or without some exceptional physical skill etc. etc.) student can't go to college without money. That's a non issue here in Europe (generally). > Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die You still have to pay for it. Without premium insurance premiu…

> Here in Europe is not perfect, bu paying more is not necessary to get better health care. I would say it depends on your illness. Here in France, if you have teeth problems, need glasses or eye surgery in order to not go blind or need to stay in the hospital, you better have good insurance (mutuelle). The state social security /does/ pay for this, but the amounts are ridiculously low. I'm not sure what the prices a…

Form what I understand Mutuelle is an integrative insurance policy that covers medical expenses if the patient decide to go to private hospitals (which need to be approved by the State).

AFAIU Mutuelle costs tens of euros a month, not hundreds or thousands.

In Italy it's the same, you can go to public hospitals which are always free if the procedure is necessary, or you can go to private hospitals or clinics and pay by yourself or through a medical insurance policy, but you absolutely don't need it, it's a choice people make.

The company I work for pays for my insurance policy, it costs them 25 euros/month and I can spend up to a couple thousand euros a year on medical procedures.

Usually people use those for things like fixing your teeth as an adult (up to 18 years the State here covers 100% of the expenses)

I used it to get two dental capsules at 70% discount rate (it was manageable anyway, less than 15 hundred euros, all included)

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#73

Post by marcinzm »

rayiner wrote: post #60
marcinzm wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is really bad for the lower middle class in terms of social support. The poor can get passable benefits if they know how to apply but the middle class doesn't get that. As a note, there's other social issues with being poor in the US so I wouldn't recommend that either.

That's why we spent a bunch of money creating the ACA. If I was a single person here in Maryland making $24,000 per year, I could get a low-deductible health plan for $115/month (and a high-deductible one for a fraction of that). That's 5.75% of gross income, which is lower than the health-insurance tax a lower middle class person would pay in most European countries.

The issue is that insurance companies don't always pay out as they have incentive to find ways to avoid paying. Then you're on the hook. If I remember, deductibles for example don't fully cover many hospital stays so you get hit with out of pocket costs. Those have a maximum cap but I'm sure there's some caveats if you end up in a hospital that's not in network for example. This is what people talk about when they say they went bankrupt despite having insurance.

edit: For example checking the Maryland ACA page is showing maximum out of pocket costs of $7k/person for most plans and up to $17k/family for some. When you make $24k/year that will wipe out your savings for years.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#74

Post by kamyarg »

marcinzm wrote: post #69
kamyarg wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know someone that immigrated to EU from middle east, after ~1 year developed a severe life threatening stomach/liver illness(can not recall the details), went through multiple operations, after 1.5-2 years away from work but getting most of his salary due to welfare got better and got back to work. He is very young and I suspect you could have anything close to this in US. Let alone immigrants, even citizens can no…

Like most things, the people who the system works for fine don't complain about it and those it fails for do complain about it.

Most of them were actually SV tech people who were well off. So I think the system was working fine for them.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#75

Post by marcinzm »

kamyarg wrote: post #74
marcinzm wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like most things, the people who the system works for fine don't complain about it and those it fails for do complain about it.

Most of them were actually SV tech people who were well off. So I think the system was working fine for them.

As someone who has lived in various parts of the US and knows people across the economic spectrum I only know of one person who has had major issues with medical coverage in the US. Various complaining about doctors and treatments and so on but that's the case in all countries.

edit: And my comment was more to point out that anecdotes make poor facts.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#76

Post by dekhn »

cnorthwood wrote: post #52
marcinzm wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Keep in mind that FAANG silicon valley paid something like $400-500k/year for those with 10 years experience pre-COVID. With top notch health insurance and other benefits (except vacation). Comes out to $250+k take home income after taxes (without deductions, no spouse, etc.). At that amount other considerations essentially no longer matter.

Is that cash, or is a significant amount of that stocks/shares or other non-cash reimbursement (which I assume is subject to tax at the point it's realised)?

speaking for google, it's a mix of: base salary, annual bonus, and restricted stock units, which are taxed at vesting time.

It blows me away every time I read an article about places other than SF and NYC: I could buy an extremely nice house, in cash, in most parts of the country, for less than a reasonable down payment on a crappy house in the bay area.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#77

Post by africanboy »

rayiner wrote: post #70
africanboy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can take for granted two things in life: - death - downvotes from Americans who do can't tolerate critics Medicaid is not "free" there are requirements, but assuming you qualify, there are hidden costs. Like for example. > The DRA created a five-year "look-back period." That means that any transfers without fair market value (gifts of any kind) made by the Medicaid applicant during the preceding five years are pe…

> Medicaid is not "free" there are requirements, but assuming you qualify, there are hidden costs. There are low, published co-pays, similar to Italy. The example you're quoting is for Medicaid nursing home care, a very expensive program with a distinct set of requirements: https://www.medicaidplanningassistance.org/medicaid-look-bac... > When a senior is applying for long-term care Medicaid, whether that is for serv…

> There are low, published co-pays, similar to Italy.

You don't need to qualify, you just need to go tot the hospital.

> Ialy does not have universal long-term care for the elderly

That's not the exact picture though.

If you read the document you posted, it clearly says that

"Only 35% of the residential care beds available are public, whereas 43% belong to private not-for-profit institutions and 22% to private for-profit ones (Table 7). The number of elderly persons in institutional care is still relatively low by international standards, being 19.8 per 1,000 inhabitants aged 65 or older."

The key points are

- elderly care in Italy has always been in the hands of religious intitutions, that's what the 43% of private non profit institutions are. (and that is honestly an entirely different can of worms, but a can of worms nonetheless. I could talk about what opus dei does here it for hours ...)

- Italy is an old country, 25% of the population is >=65, most of them are in relatively good health conditions, as the study confirms.

- only 22% of the long term beds for elderly are private for profit, usually they are for richer people, who want to separate themselves from the rest of us.

- in total, on 15 million elderly, only less then 300k are hospitalized and only 60k of them are paying.

- the vast majority of the elders are taken care of at home, if they are not self sufficient, the State gives the family an allowance to take care of them.

- the problem here is the opposite: many try to trick the State into thinking they need monetary help faking disabilities they don have.

Not counting that elders in Italy have pensions, all of them, regardless of the amount of retirement savings (savings here are mandatory, a minimum of 23% of the salary, of course more savings mean higher pensions, but with zero savings people still get a - fairly low - pension) , payed directly by the State, adjusted for inflation, and that we spend around 15% of our GDP in pensions.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#78

Post by realityking »

JPKab wrote: post #57
scotty79 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life. In my uncharitable opinion US is good for earning money as a young, highly educated person and for nothing else. So go there when you are around 25, work your ass off at whoever pays the most for your skillset, spend as little as possible and bail before 35. Later you're screwed. You'll still make more and mo…

You have an incredibly inaccurate take on the US healthcare system. I live here and I'm in my late 30s with a family. My wife is a cancer survivor. My oldest son was born 3 months premature. and yet I'm not penniless and broke because my health insurance paid for everything. I'm not saying it's an ideal system and doesn't have major flaws but if you are a software engineer the scenario you are describing just isn't a…

> but if you are a software engineer the scenario you are describing just isn't a thing

Note that the author of the original tweet was not afraid of her own financial situation but doesn’t want live in a system where _anyone_ has to fear going broke over medical expenses.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#79

Post by pidg »

marcinzm wrote: post #28
pidg wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The occasional donation to a non-profit might help people subsist, but it doesn't build a better society with more opportunities for everyone. Nobody needs an obscene salary for writing code when others are struggling to afford the basics. As an aside, I remember being really taken aback when I went on holiday to the US and most of the menial jobs were being carried out by Hispanic and Black people. I guess if you ar…

Race aside, how is that different than western europe importing eastern europeans to work their menial jobs?

I guess freedom of movement allowing Eastern Europeans to legally live, work and pay tax in Western Europe without jumping through hoops, and immediately being able to benefit from the social systems there.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#80

Post by 908B64B197 »

exabrial wrote: post #3

It seems she's fairly ignorant of how things work here as the vast majority of his fears are unfounded. That's ok though, the point about comparing salaries is very valid, there's extreme cost of living differences among many other things. For a lot of Americans, the fear we have is being completely dependent on the government. Look at who is exiting presidential office, look who is entering. Attaching our fates to t…

Good thing the article was flagged.

She's wrong and misleading on so many things, It's really hard for me not to think she was somehow paid to write that. By whom I have no clue.

It reads like a PR piece to fear potential high value EU expats, a cheap attempt at preventing them from jumping ships instead of actually fixing the underlying issues.

I've done a little bit of international recruiting and it's always surprising the number of misconceptions folks have.

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