Do not compare EU salaries with the US • Hacker News Board

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#51

Post by raverbashing » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #44

scotty79 wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life. In my uncharitable opinion US is good for earning money as a young, highly educated person and for nothing else. So go there when you are around 25, work your ass off at whoever pays the most for your skillset, spend as little as possible and bail before 35. Later you're screwed. You'll still make more and mo…

https://healthpayerintelligence.com/news/cancer-patients-pai... > In a case study, a patient with lymphoma paid out-of-pocket healthcare costs from $6,446 in a large employer-sponsored health plan to $12,931 in a health plan on the individual health insurance market. These were all Affordable Care Act (ACA)-compliant plans. Total out of pocket costs for cancer were $5.6 billion in 2018, with 1.8 million cases. That's…

> In contrast, in a short-term limited duration plan that does not have to conform to ACA standards, the patient paid $51,660 out-of-pocket.

So you just need to be lucky to have an employer that won't fire you if you get sick right?

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#52

Post by cnorthwood » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:10 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #48

cnorthwood wrote: post #4

It seems very hard to compare the two figures. I guess the interesting way to compare them would be what's the disposable income you have to spend normalised against purchasing power. So gross salary, less taxes (payroll and any others if applicable), pension contributions, student loan repayments, medical insurance contributions (and other out-of-pocket expenses relating to that you may have to pay in a typical year…

Keep in mind that FAANG silicon valley paid something like $400-500k/year for those with 10 years experience pre-COVID. With top notch health insurance and other benefits (except vacation). Comes out to $250+k take home income after taxes (without deductions, no spouse, etc.). At that amount other considerations essentially no longer matter.

Is that cash, or is a significant amount of that stocks/shares or other non-cash reimbursement (which I assume is subject to tax at the point it's realised)?

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#53

Post by JPKab » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

africanboy wrote: post #35

JPKab wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a family whose income put us below poverty line. I didn't have to pay for college, due to Pell grants, yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money. That's just not a thing. But the media in the US creates that impression for Europeans. Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die. Not accurate. Medicare, medicaid, etc. Not saying its good, jus…

> yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money No, she actually thinks that an average (or below average, or without some exceptional physical skill etc. etc.) student can't go to college without money. That's a non issue here in Europe (generally). > Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die You still have to pay for it. Without premium insurance premiu…

if you are below a certain income in the United States you don't have to pay for your health care. End of story.

Most Europeans don't know anything about the US other than Michael Moore documentaries and reports from very biased journalists. I think the US medical system is incredibly flawed and has horrific inefficiencies and other things that make me hate it, but I live here and I actually know a lot about it as opposed to the typical European who comments on it based on the second hand information.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#54

Post by rayiner » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:15 PM UTC

raverbashing wrote: post #51

rayiner wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://healthpayerintelligence.com/news/cancer-patients-pai... > In a case study, a patient with lymphoma paid out-of-pocket healthcare costs from $6,446 in a large employer-sponsored health plan to $12,931 in a health plan on the individual health insurance market. These were all Affordable Care Act (ACA)-compliant plans. Total out of pocket costs for cancer were $5.6 billion in 2018, with 1.8 million cases. That's…

> In contrast, in a short-term limited duration plan that does not have to conform to ACA standards, the patient paid $51,660 out-of-pocket. So you just need to be lucky to have an employer that won't fire you if you get sick right?

There is no need for a short-term limited duration plan under the ACA, because losing your job is a qualifying event that allows you to enroll in the ACA exchange or Medicaid (depending on our financial situation) and that can't be denied due to pre-existing conditions.

We've had the ACA for a decade now, you can't just pretend it never happened.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#55

Post by vladvasiliu » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

africanboy wrote: post #35

JPKab wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a family whose income put us below poverty line. I didn't have to pay for college, due to Pell grants, yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money. That's just not a thing. But the media in the US creates that impression for Europeans. Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die. Not accurate. Medicare, medicaid, etc. Not saying its good, jus…

> yet she thinks that in the USA, a good student can't go to college without money No, she actually thinks that an average (or below average, or without some exceptional physical skill etc. etc.) student can't go to college without money. That's a non issue here in Europe (generally). > Also, the idea that poor people with cancer in the US are left to die You still have to pay for it. Without premium insurance premiu…

> Here in Europe is not perfect, bu paying more is not necessary to get better health care.

I would say it depends on your illness. Here in France, if you have teeth problems, need glasses or eye surgery in order to not go blind or need to stay in the hospital, you better have good insurance (mutuelle). The state social security /does/ pay for this, but the amounts are ridiculously low. I'm not sure what the prices are in the US, but healthcare over here is not free. Source: my mom had to undergo eye surgery (the mutuelle had to cover a fair chunk of the cost) and my father had to spend some time in the hospital for surgery; both where in "state-approved" clinics.

I'm not familiar with how the US system works, but from what I understand this "mutuelle" thing looks like the employer health plans in the US. It's also paid for by the employer over here, but you have to pay income tax on it.

I think that many people, at least when they compare the US to France, consider that the insurance paid-for by the employer is somehow "free", or don't even realize it's there.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#56

Post by SuperFluffy » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

I live in Germany, and I do compare salaries to American numbers. This is the very reason why I will never work for German companies ever again, because I'm not willing to be dependent on wage labour until the end of my days. I am working remotely for a US startup, who a) value my skillset instead of using antiquated tech, and b) who pay twice what I made before in Germany, and c) recently made me a cofounder.

German startups aside, our big multinationals happily create teams working in the the US and Germany, while paying their German employees a fraction of their American colleagues. I know of cases in pharma, automotive, and erp.

I'm loathe seeing this contentment with the wage situation in Germany. If wages for in demand fields like Software engineering are essentially flat for 30 years and €70k are considered an amazing salary, how exactly are wages supposed to rise in service sector fields, for example for caregivers? Salaries as part of gdp have deceased over that time range, but the prevalent ideology among my crowd is that one shall not work for money, because that's apparently a dirty thing to do.

Software engineers not pushing for significantly higher wages and gaslighting people who do makes them accomplices to the wage surpression that is rampant in Germany and the EU at large.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#57

Post by JPKab » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:17 PM UTC

scotty79 wrote: post #6

AntiImperialis4 wrote: post #2

DO compare it and see how much one can end up saving in a given time in the US, even after paying for healthcare, education etc.

You'll get ruined in US if you get cancer in your close family despite 'paying for healthcare' all your life. In my uncharitable opinion US is good for earning money as a young, highly educated person and for nothing else. So go there when you are around 25, work your ass off at whoever pays the most for your skillset, spend as little as possible and bail before 35. Later you're screwed. You'll still make more and mo…

You have an incredibly inaccurate take on the US healthcare system. I live here and I'm in my late 30s with a family. My wife is a cancer survivor. My oldest son was born 3 months premature. and yet I'm not penniless and broke because my health insurance paid for everything.

I'm not saying it's an ideal system and doesn't have major flaws but if you are a software engineer the scenario you are describing just isn't a thing. I'm sure it feels a lot better to tell yourself that when you realize you're being paid a quarter what you could be on the other side of the Atlantic.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#58

Post by kevindong » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:19 PM UTC

scrose wrote: post #23

sjg007 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put it this way, in Silicon Valley, a family of 4 making $100k USD qualify for affordable housing programs.

That seems pretty good to be honest. I’ve seen affordable housing listings in NYC for families of 1-2 with income limits topping out at 160K.

For example, this lottery [0] from early 2020 permits individuals with an income of $168,130 to qualify for the affordable unit.

Affordable housing units developed during some of the late 2000s to early 2010s had very, very high income limits. Those housing programs have mostly been sunset at this point but units built under those programs retain the income bracket levels then in effect.

http://web.archive.org/web/20200110053546/http://www.nychdc....

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#59

Post by TMWNN » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:21 PM UTC

cnorthwood wrote: post #4

It seems very hard to compare the two figures. I guess the interesting way to compare them would be what's the disposable income you have to spend normalised against purchasing power. So gross salary, less taxes (payroll and any others if applicable), pension contributions, student loan repayments, medical insurance contributions (and other out-of-pocket expenses relating to that you may have to pay in a typical year…

>It seems very hard to compare the two figures. I guess the interesting way to compare them would be what's the disposable income you have to spend normalised against purchasing power. So gross salary, less taxes (payroll and any others if applicable), pension contributions, student loan repayments, medical insurance contributions (and other out-of-pocket expenses relating to that you may have to pay in a typical year), and then baseline cost-of-living (rent/mortgage payments), but there are so many variables there it seems very hard to be directly comparable.

At $45,284 the US has the highest household net disposable income per capita in the OECD (http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/united-states/), where "[disposable income](http://stats.oecd.org/glossary/detail.asp?ID=46)" is adjusted for purchasing power and accounts for healthcare and government benefits. By contrast Canada is $30,854 (http://www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org/countries/canada/), below the OECD average of $33,604.

Re: Do not compare EU salaries with the US

#60

Post by rayiner » Sat, Jan 02, 2021, 5:22 PM UTC

marcinzm wrote: post #50

rayiner wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you really unaware of Medicaid? Here in Maryland, a 3-person household like the author's can make up to $29,000/year and be eligible for Medicaid.

The US is really bad for the lower middle class in terms of social support. The poor can get passable benefits if they know how to apply but the middle class doesn't get that. As a note, there's other social issues with being poor in the US so I wouldn't recommend that either.

That's why we spent a bunch of money creating the ACA. If I was a single person here in Maryland making $24,000 per year, I could get a low-deductible health plan for $115/month (and a high-deductible one for a fraction of that).

That's 5.75% of gross income, which is lower than the health-insurance tax a lower middle class person would pay in most European countries.