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Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

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Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#71

Post by rsecora »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #59
rsecora wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't say there is a silver bullet. But there is tendency on people not trained in typewriting to have RSI. And the capslock remapping is a clue of people not being trained. Maybe the training forces to have the right siting position or to remove bad positions, or the memory muscle needed to achieve more than 100 words/min, or the hand not overusing 2/3 fingers. Or the hand position... Or maybe its everything. For…

How does capslock remapping have anything to do with proper training? I remapped capslock because it had been years since I pressed it intentionally, but I use escape all the time. Does remapping capslock mean I worked too hard to type this comment?

No, you don't need caps lock for this text, because there aren't two continuous uppercase keys.

My comment was about my memory muscle. I developed it in a training a long ago. I feel my typing unnatural when I don't have capslock.

I have notice that this also happens to people that have learn typewriting in the school. In the training you learn: there are two shift keys, use caps lock, use both hands, only press with fingers, never use two fingers of the same hand, sit correctly, align the forearm and the hand, mistakes are costly.

Online keyboard typing usage focus on finger, but in the 80s, the first training day was also on proper position.

if your current workflow don't need caps lock go for it. I'm not advocating for remapping or not. I have only notice the way the caps lock (or the two shifts) are used, usually implies the operator has perform a typewriting training back in the days.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#72

Post by rsecora »

DavidVoid wrote: post #47
rsecora wrote: post #23

My two cents on the RSI and fast typing. I learned typing 40 years ago, in the same way as secretaries do, with a real mechanical typewriter (an Olivetti one), and following an standard typewriter course for 2 months. My parents and relatives also used mechanical typewriters for 20 years before (8 hours a day). The writer says "CapsLock is useless... remap". I have seen that statement a lot of times, and I deeply fee…

Caps lock is usefully but only occasionally, so it doesn't make sense to give it its own key in such a prominent position. Remapping the Caps Lock key to Control is imo very useful. I use a HHKB so if I want to use Caps Lock I just press Fn+Tab.

Right, the world has changed in the last 40 years.

And you have developed memory muscle for Fn+Tab for the same purpose. Great.

But some oldies like me, feel when a keyboard lacks some keys, and I notice when other people have also being trained in the same way. (use two shift, only one finger from each hand each time (shift pressed with opposite hand to the key), balance the shift, balance the space-key... A lot of combinations that are deep inside. It's like an continental european driving in the UK, almost the same rules, but the body feels something is different, and the conscience pays more attention.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#73

Post by CarelessExpert »

GrantZvolsky wrote: post #14

I've been typing without any signs of RSI until I started using vim. Vim forced me to switch from my 'custom/natural' hand position* , which uses just 3-4 fingers of the right hand, to the home row position, which uses all five. This put too much strain on my ring finger which is much weaker than the other fingers, and that I believe led to RSI. Maybe I'm an outlier with atypical anatomy, or maybe we should challenge…

Huh, I had the opposite experience. Around... 15 years ago? I switched away from Emacs to Vim because of dreaded Emacs Finger.

Of course, I could've tried other solutions: actually using the right hand Ctrl and Alt (my typing form is... good but not great), or swapping Ctrl and and Capslocks.

But I opted to switch to Vim, and lo and behold, my problems evaporated when I no longer had to constantly chord. I'm now 41 with no significant RSI issues.

Or: YMMV!

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#74

Post by daveFNbuck »

rsecora wrote: post #71
daveFNbuck wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How does capslock remapping have anything to do with proper training? I remapped capslock because it had been years since I pressed it intentionally, but I use escape all the time. Does remapping capslock mean I worked too hard to type this comment?

No, you don't need caps lock for this text, because there aren't two continuous uppercase keys. My comment was about my memory muscle. I developed it in a training a long ago. I feel my typing unnatural when I don't have capslock. I have notice that this also happens to people that have learn typewriting in the school. In the training you learn: there are two shift keys, use caps lock, use both hands, only press with…

As another anecdote for your collection, I was taught to type on a typewriter in a course in middle school in the 90's.

Having to type multiple capital letters in a row is rare enough that I never developed a habit of using the capslock key. I get by using shift on the rare occasions that I need to type multiple capital characters in a row. It's rarely more than one word.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#75

Post by rsecora »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #74
rsecora wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you don't need caps lock for this text, because there aren't two continuous uppercase keys. My comment was about my memory muscle. I developed it in a training a long ago. I feel my typing unnatural when I don't have capslock. I have notice that this also happens to people that have learn typewriting in the school. In the training you learn: there are two shift keys, use caps lock, use both hands, only press with…

As another anecdote for your collection, I was taught to type on a typewriter in a course in middle school in the 90's. Having to type multiple capital letters in a row is rare enough that I never developed a habit of using the capslock key. I get by using shift on the rare occasions that I need to type multiple capital characters in a row. It's rarely more than one word.

Right, typing multiple caps in a row was mostly a way to place emphasis at the time of mechanical typewriters. When there was only a font, no italics, and two colors (if you where lucky).

Anyway, it's obsolete for modern usage https://www.wired.com/2006/08/death-to-caps-lock/

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#76

Post by daveFNbuck »

rsecora wrote: post #75
daveFNbuck wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As another anecdote for your collection, I was taught to type on a typewriter in a course in middle school in the 90's. Having to type multiple capital letters in a row is rare enough that I never developed a habit of using the capslock key. I get by using shift on the rare occasions that I need to type multiple capital characters in a row. It's rarely more than one word.

Right, typing multiple caps in a row was mostly a way to place emphasis at the time of mechanical typewriters. When there was only a font, no italics, and two colors (if you where lucky). Anyway, it's obsolete for modern usage https://www.wired.com/2006/08/death-to-caps-lock/

I'm having trouble squaring the things you've said at this point. You commented earlier with

> The writer says "CapsLock is useless... remap". I have seen that statement a lot of times, and I deeply feel it wrong. That means the author hasn't been properly trained at typing.

If the capslock key is obselete, why is it wrong to remap it? Why would remapping an obselete key indicate improper training? Perhaps the author was trained properly on a different system, or had the same training as you but has since adapted.

I get that it's part of your muscle memory and you'd prefer to keep using an obselete key, but why say it's wrong for others to not use the capslock key?

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#77

Post by rsecora »

daveFNbuck wrote: post #76
rsecora wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, typing multiple caps in a row was mostly a way to place emphasis at the time of mechanical typewriters. When there was only a font, no italics, and two colors (if you where lucky). Anyway, it's obsolete for modern usage https://www.wired.com/2006/08/death-to-caps-lock/

I'm having trouble squaring the things you've said at this point. You commented earlier with > The writer says "CapsLock is useless... remap". I have seen that statement a lot of times, and I deeply feel it wrong. That means the author hasn't been properly trained at typing. If the capslock key is obselete, why is it wrong to remap it? Why would remapping an obselete key indicate improper training? Perhaps the author…

Lets write again. I'm not advocating in anyway for using caps or for the opposite.

I'm used to caps, so my typing flow needs it. When I have used keyboards without caps, I feel them wrong. (same happens when I use a non querty keyboard). It's a personal feeling, so I will not remap it. If others want to remap, and they feel more productive, its ok. But not for me, because I know i'm more productive with it.

The point on my comment was about RSI and training. using the keys properly reduces injuries. Proper forearm/hand alignment, balance of shift/ctrl key, balance of the space-key....

Example:

Uppercase "A": What keys do you use?

1) Left pinky in left-shift / Ring or middle finger in "a"?

2) Left pinky in "a" / Right pinky in right shift?

Using 1) stress the hand/wrist/forearm, using 2) is quicker, and more natural and avoids stress. This has nothing to do with caps-lock.

Trained typewriter use 2. I usually recognize if a trained one in the 70s/80s by the "obsolete" usage of capslock.

Then are are people like you, that were also trained and do not use it. My phrasing was too strong and rude. Sorry for that. I haven't realize this was a hot topic.

My comment was not to advocate for caps-lock, but trying to advice on typing training, maybe it can help someone. That was the original intention, list actions to alleviate a common injury. Training was not only repetition of keys, but also use the right position and key combinations.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#78

Post by daveFNbuck »

rsecora wrote: post #77
daveFNbuck wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm having trouble squaring the things you've said at this point. You commented earlier with > The writer says "CapsLock is useless... remap". I have seen that statement a lot of times, and I deeply feel it wrong. That means the author hasn't been properly trained at typing. If the capslock key is obselete, why is it wrong to remap it? Why would remapping an obselete key indicate improper training? Perhaps the author…

Lets write again. I'm not advocating in anyway for using caps or for the opposite. I'm used to caps, so my typing flow needs it. When I have used keyboards without caps, I feel them wrong. (same happens when I use a non querty keyboard). It's a personal feeling, so I will not remap it. If others want to remap, and they feel more productive, its ok. But not for me, because I know i'm more productive with it. The point…

I didn't and don't consider your comments to be rude. I was just trying to understand your point. To me, remapping caps lock seems unrelated to RSI but isn't counterproductive as I thought you were suggesting.

I'm honestly not sure how I type the uppercase A, as I don't normally think about typing and now I'm in my head about it. I suspect that I use the left shift key, as it's easier to hit than the right and feels a little more natural as I try both now.

Just because I was trained by a proper instructor on a typewriter doesn't mean I've kept all the best habits in the decades since. I'll be putting in an effort to train myself out of the bad habit of using the shift key on the same side as the key I'm pressing. Thanks.

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#79

Post by fomine3 »

YorickPeterse wrote: post #63
Reefersleep wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I didn't do any testing to figure out where the latency came from, but the article was pretty thorough in documenting the palpable difference between Ergodox and e.g. the Apple Magic keyboard. I managed to dig it up for you: https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/ Come to think of it, I might have incurred some latency myself with the particular layout I'd brewed; some keys had dual meanings depending on whether I held…

> https://danluu.com/keyboard-latency/ I'm surprised the HHKB2 scores better than the Ergodox. I used one for years but found it to type more sluggish. I suspect this is due to Topre switches requiring a bit more force to push down. > Come to think of it, I might have incurred some latency myself with the particular layout I'd brewed Oh yeah, the dual-function keys are horrible latency wise. I tried various ways of r…

The HHKB2 in the article is Lite2 that's cheap edition and doesn't have Topre switches but basic membrane switches.

> A major source of latency is key travel time. It’s not a coincidence that the quickest keyboard measured also has the shortest key travel distance by a large margin.

So this article's measurement highly depending on key switches. So it should use gaming keyboard that uses shallower actuation point key switches. I also want to see how variable actuation point keyboard works. (like Topre's Realforce APC)

Re: Fast Typing: Keyboard Layouts

#80

Post by Symbiote »

cosmotic wrote: post #58

DVORAK has long been debunked. It was a fraudulent study conducted by the US navy. The transition into dvorak will slow you; the constant need to setup your key layout on new computers will slow you, the inability to use other computers quickly will slow you, the inability for others to use computers you've setup will be a problem... https://reason.com/1996/06/01/typing-errors/

That article is either crap (e.g. rubbished Dvorak to make some anti-government point), or irrelevant.

It's irrelevant since we were discussing typing _comfort_ (RSI etc), and it's difficult to find someone familiar with both Qwerty and Dvorak who will not argue that Dvorak is more comfortable to use.

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