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Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

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Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#71
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is a generous tax credit. The Fed is printing money by their lending operations, devaluing the dollar in the process.

Six of one, half a dozen of the other. The difference is that Fed injections benefit the wealthy, and a UBI benefits the poor most. This is not inflationary, since we are in a depression. As far as devaluing the dollar versus other currencies, everyone else is creating tons of money as well. I'd really welcome a dollar devaluation, actually, to help with our trade deficit.

No argument from me! It's all just spreadsheet economics, with everyone attempting to shape the narrative to meet their ideology.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#72
post #68

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

Elimination of the price mechanism eliminates a key way to sort out who truly needs healthcare (or whatever service). Consider a safe elective knee surgery. If you knew it was paid for by the government, you would just sign yourself up for the surgery for even the slightest ache. If there was a copay, you might reconsider unless your pain was actually painful enough to warrant it. Ask any Brit about NHS waiting times…

What does it means for healthcare to be underconsumed?

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#73
post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Fed is lending money to prevent a financial crisis, not simply giving it away. Look back at the 2008 crisis and see that the government actually profited significantly from issuing those debts in the long term. UBI is a giveaway not a loan.

UBI is a generous tax credit. The Fed is printing money by their lending operations, devaluing the dollar in the process.

Let us assume that your concerns about devaluation come true. Let us say that Poor Man has $10,000 and Rich Man has $10,000,000. Devaluation of dollar by 10% means poor man loses $1,000 and Rich man loses $1,000,000.

Who loses out more under devaluation?

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#74
post #67
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What people need to thrive is security the knowledge that if unfortunate events outside of their control happen, that they will be helped to the degree that society is able I don't know if I believe this. It's unpopular, but I think being completely secure may have some negatives. For example, drawing upon my own life experiences, I found it hard to find motivation to be productive when I was completely secure in a…

>it lit a fire under my butt and I was highly motivated to start sharpening my computer industry skills, doing side projects, etc. in case it didn't work out and I had to find a "real job" (and it didn't work out). I don't know if that will fit a lot of people's idea of thriving (it's highly personal). That's really survival skills so you don't end up homeless. Some really do thrive on chaos, uncertainty, and not bei…

> Others don't need that, they can improve themselves for the sake of improving. Chaos and uncertainty keep them from focusing on improving.

So the question is, what % of people are like that, and what percentage are like me (complete security I didn't really have to work for robbed my motivation). If only a small % of people become more productive in free complete security, and the majority become less productive under free complete security... is free complete security still worth it?

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#75

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

In general Andrew intended that proposal to re-orient the conversation about spending priorities and service delivery.

In concrete terms, Andrew proposed a VAT, while also reorganizing existing social welfare programs, of which there are uncountable multitudes, each with highly specific eligibility requirements and screening and fraud machinery, into a more coherent, holistic delivery model that de-prioritized or eliminated eligibility.

His numbers "work" but at that scale they entail such an enormous reworking of federal and state machinery that they're in practical terms a non-starter. Cue up recent conversations about M4A, Obamacare, etc, but on an even larger scale. (disclaimer: I support the idea, but appreciate it is more conceptual value than concrete implementation.)

Right now, Fed govt takes in $3.8 trillion in revenues, mostly taxes, spends $4+ trillion, with two thirds of fiscal dollars going to human-oriented mandatory programs like social security, medicare, medicaid, various federally funded insurance programs, etc and one third going to discretionary, which itself is half military, then half everything else.

A VAT would essentially be a transaction tax that scaled to GDP, so from a model perspective, while GDP is $20T, a VAT would bring in $2T of new revenues, sufficient to begin a conversation about giving $10k/year to 200,000,000 people. In reality- who knows. A VAT would have huge implications and lots and lots of things would change.

A lot of the comments center around credit dollars that the Fed has created- basically large scale loans- to provide transitory liquidity to the financial system. Those comments misunderstand the nature of credit dollars, but IMHO they are not wrong. Credit dollars are a completely different tool than the above fiscal dollars generated from taxes. The US government has essentially infinite credit capacity.

To my eyes credit dollars are both a better and more appropriate funding source for something like UBI, particularly if UBI is tweaked to focus on the liquidity needs of children, women, and those whose current fiscal value is low relative either to future value or to the fiscal value of others. I would love Pelosi to consider that as a concrete option, the politics seem ideal for it.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#76
post #68

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

Elimination of the price mechanism eliminates a key way to sort out who truly needs healthcare (or whatever service). Consider a safe elective knee surgery. If you knew it was paid for by the government, you would just sign yourself up for the surgery for even the slightest ache. If there was a copay, you might reconsider unless your pain was actually painful enough to warrant it. Ask any Brit about NHS waiting times…

The problem with price as a mechanism to determine who truly needs a resource is that it excludes people who don't have money. For example, children who would greatly benefit from early therapeutic and/or psychiatric care.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#77
post #68

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

Elimination of the price mechanism eliminates a key way to sort out who truly needs healthcare (or whatever service). Consider a safe elective knee surgery. If you knew it was paid for by the government, you would just sign yourself up for the surgery for even the slightest ache. If there was a copay, you might reconsider unless your pain was actually painful enough to warrant it. Ask any Brit about NHS waiting times…

Brit here...

I disagree.

You don’t sign yourself up for surgery at the first ache.

Health is a basic human right and if your country can support that I believe it has a duty to do so.

If the system was nationalised then it has massive negotiating power when buying equipment and supplies.

That’s what happens with what’s left of our NHS before greedy capitalists got hold of it.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#78
post #55
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's pretty hard to argue that private companies are good and ethical at operating natural monopolies. History and all evidence is not on your side. I'll list a few examples: the California blackouts after electrical deregulation, the Bolivian water crisis after water supplies were privatized, the abuses of companies like Comcast in the US, etc. Even Adam Smith warned of natural monopolies. Nearly any economi…

Are healthcare outcomes worse in the US than other first world countries? Life expectancy is endogenous to variables like diet and exercise. Looking at cancer survival rates, the US is best at some and mediocre at others but other countries are not "objectively better"[0]. Is health expenditure in the US higher than in other countries? Yes, but that is because the US is rich, really rich. If we plot US Real Household…

The US is obviously not rich enough to cover all or even most citizens. And a lot of people are not rich enough to avoid bankruptcy because of medical bills.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its called redistribution. I understand and appreciate that that answer is not palatable to many people but that is the clear answer.

Even if you took all the money from all the billionaires, and we're assuming frictionless transaction and 100% liquidity, you can't afford it for more than a couple years. The money just runs out.

USA gpd per capita is ~60k a year right? And your saying 12k per year per capita is impossible?

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#80
post #11

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

The same way we are funding massive corporate bailouts. Sovereign government debt does not work like personal debt, for the simple reason that money can be printed. Fears of inflation in a time like this are completely unwarranted. edit: Back of the envelope math shows that 1000/month for the US population is about $4 trillion/year. The Fed has pumped more than that into financial markets since this pandemic has star…

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