Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang • Hacker News Board

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#21

Post by zabil » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

jjtheblunt wrote: post #5

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

I don't know how the numbers work. But I also don't think the plan is one page document that can be explained to a 5 year old.

Same holds true for universal health care, social housing, subsidies etc etc. They may sound absurd in beginning but governments do implement them.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#22

Post by quaquaqua1 » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:32 PM UTC

jjtheblunt wrote: post #5

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

I was typing out a really long response to you with many if...then statements, but then I realized there are too many powerful agencies and institutions that don't want to give up their ability to tax/spend. Medicaid/Medicare, Social Security, IRS, all 50 states etc have defined (and flawed processes) and probably will refuse to give up control over welfare spending or tax revenue generation.

So if you can't completely start from scratch, then ultimately the only source of revenue for UBI would be to cut spending somehow (good luck convincing the Pentagon of that), or to generate additional taxation on businesses (which resulted in them moving crucial facilities to Mexico, Eastern Europe, India, China, etc)

At some point, the USA might be better off if we all have a dividend for every citizen based on our country's profit, like Alaska has currently.

This way it is not a guarantee how much you will make, but it is something.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#23

Post by Ididntdothis » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

godzillabrennus wrote: post #19

munificent wrote: post #16

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

Governments that centrally plan all the basic necessities you outline are terrible at all of them. Democide tends to happen as government collects more power in the process. Letting government give a basic income and the private sector filling supply is a much more reasonable solution. Let’s a free market exist to satisfy demand while recognizing the end of jobs is about here.

If you don’t control things at least a little, things like health care, education and rent will suck up all basic income very quickly. I think a good first step would be universal healthcare, then do something about affordable housing and education.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#24

Post by olivermarks » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

Reedx wrote: post #13

jjtheblunt wrote: post #5

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

Answers: https://www.yang2020.com/what-is-freedom-dividend-faq/ He also talked about the actual implementation a lot during the campaign.

After Yang ran out of money to campaign (sic) and joined CNN, Tulsi Gabbard vowed to continue the UBI efforts (which she had also previously championed) with a proposed bill on March 12th as Direct Coronavirus Pandemic Relief.

The DNC old guard, who mostly ignored Yang and ostracized and smeared Gabbard now seem to be slowly grasping some of these ideas and seeing how they could be tetrised into their status quo without disturbing too much...

https://gabbard.house.gov/news/press-releases/rep-tulsi-gabb...

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#25

Post by cultus » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

godzillabrennus wrote: post #19

munificent wrote: post #16

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

Governments that centrally plan all the basic necessities you outline are terrible at all of them. Democide tends to happen as government collects more power in the process. Letting government give a basic income and the private sector filling supply is a much more reasonable solution. Let’s a free market exist to satisfy demand while recognizing the end of jobs is about here.

I think it's pretty hard to argue that private companies are good and ethical at operating natural monopolies. History and all evidence is not on your side. I'll list a few examples: the California blackouts after electrical deregulation, the Bolivian water crisis after water supplies were privatized, the abuses of companies like Comcast in the US, etc.

Even Adam Smith warned of natural monopolies. Nearly any economist will tell you letting them be private and under-regulated is nuts.

The same with healthcare. Why is every other first world country able to get objectively better health outcomes for less money with universal healthcare? How is our system better?

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#26

Post by zhte415 » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #15

cultus wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same way we are funding massive corporate bailouts. Sovereign government debt does not work like personal debt, for the simple reason that money can be printed. Fears of inflation in a time like this are completely unwarranted. edit: Back of the envelope math shows that 1000/month for the US population is about $4 trillion/year. The Fed has pumped more than that into financial markets since this pandemic has star…

Why are they completely unwarranted? I'm not an economist, so it's not obvious to me why printing money wouldn't lead create an inflation problem that is worse than the unemployment problem. I would be very interested to know the details that allow us to say such things so confidently. EDIT: Thanks to those who provided such insightful answers! Very helpful for a layperson like me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_exchange

The velocity has dropped rapidly in recent weeks. To not increase supply would be deflationary.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#27

Post by petermcneeley » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

jjtheblunt wrote: post #5

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

Its called redistribution. I understand and appreciate that that answer is not palatable to many people but that is the clear answer.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#28

Post by jakearmitage » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #16

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

What about child care? Education? Transportation? Dental care?

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#29

Post by legitster » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

cultus wrote: post #11

jjtheblunt wrote: post #5

How was $1000/month for anyone over age 18 supposed to be funded? Without exact details answering such, do voters believe this is more than seeking voter-attention. Are there actual plans of implementation whose economics/numbers work? I see people discuss such but never see answers.

The same way we are funding massive corporate bailouts. Sovereign government debt does not work like personal debt, for the simple reason that money can be printed. Fears of inflation in a time like this are completely unwarranted. edit: Back of the envelope math shows that 1000/month for the US population is about $4 trillion/year. The Fed has pumped more than that into financial markets since this pandemic has star…

The Fed did not just print money - it added liquidity into the market via long term term obligations or asset swaps.

Re: Pelosi: It's time to consider universal basic income pushed by Andrew Yang

#30

Post by bobthepanda » Tue, Apr 28, 2020, 5:38 PM UTC

munificent wrote: post #16

I think well before we consider universal basic income, we should consider universal basic services . Many services are already highly regulated and naturally somewhat difficult to exploit. Healthcare is the obvious one. It's not like you can get a surgery and then resell it to exploit the system. (You could, of course, exploit things like pain medication, but overall healthcare is not expoitation-friendly.) Some amo…

The problem with declaring "universal basic X" is that once the "base" level gets set it gets very hard to reduce the baseline. We see this in countries that use fuel subsidies and are now trying to withdraw them because they are too expensive, and same goes for food.

For example; universal basic water in Arizona might have the adverse effect of incentivizing greater water consumption. Universal basic fuel can incentivize wasteful fuel usage, and so forth.

In countries that provide basic rations, there are absolutely massive problems with people illegally siphoning subsidized food, water, and electricity and reselling in black markets or other countries with unsubsidized goods for profit. (Haven't heard of it for Internet or healthcare, but where there's a will there could be a way.)

EDIT: removed healthcare