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Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

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Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#71

Post by jgust »

bitL wrote: post #68
acd wrote: post #63

I can highly recommend the world to adopt like in the Nordics at least 4-5 weeks of yearly vacation. Staff are more rested with more vacation so they are more productive plus you get a different perspective having time off. Also companies should allow remote work and flexible hours. Further due to increased automation we could actually work less hours keeping the same output. If we automate more work we could allow u…

Increased productivity doesn't lead to increased wages and increased automation doesn't lead to less work/lower number of days/hours at work. Management plays dominance game, that only works when employees are made feel frustrated and stressed; any move towards happiness like reduced hours and work from home/remotely diminishes any gains from dominance game; relaxed employees with many options would require any monet…

You state this like it's a natural fact. That's how it is in many places, _today_. It doesn't have to be this way. As far as I know, there is no law of physics that has us locked into this way of operating society.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#72

Post by sharadov »

marvin wrote: post #46
verttii wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well just dropping a link to a news article or a study wouldn't really change things. If you look at who's the one producing major digital innovations it's still USA. Sure the Nordic countries are smaller but it's hard to compete against countries like USA with well educated people with strong work ethic when you're pushing in half the hours. Sweden sure is doing well with digital innovations but can't say that the r…

I don't think, at all that Amazon, Facebook, Google, Tesla, SpaceX, Microsoft, Apple, Netflix, +++ could have happened in Scandinavia. Even our small success stories are sold to foreign investors before they have time to grow big. It's harder to determine the cause, though. Contrary to popular opinion, I believe that work ethic, level of dedication, drive and regulatory climate wrt. employee protections, consumer pro…

The Scandinavian countries are all in essence "nanny states", great to live in if you are not too ambitious or entrepreneurial. Also because of low-population density and abundant natural resources, their experiments with regard to social-welfare have worked. Unfortunately, that model cannot be replicated in the rest of the world, let alone highly populous countries.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#73

Post by perfmode »

jgust wrote: post #71
bitL wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increased productivity doesn't lead to increased wages and increased automation doesn't lead to less work/lower number of days/hours at work. Management plays dominance game, that only works when employees are made feel frustrated and stressed; any move towards happiness like reduced hours and work from home/remotely diminishes any gains from dominance game; relaxed employees with many options would require any monet…

You state this like it's a natural fact. That's how it is in many places, _today_. It doesn't have to be this way. As far as I know, there is no law of physics that has us locked into this way of operating society.

it’s helpful to articulate the status quo as a first step toward authorizing an alternative.

i agrée it doesn’t have to be that way. and i agree it’s not a natural law.

what we need is for people among is to articulate alternatives. and for us to be open minded and willing to take some risks to get toward a better dynamic.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#74

Post by rayiner »

Someone1234 wrote: post #34
verttii wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, exactly because of the high work ethic USA excels in many regards that these "well-being nations" do not. But you're right, it doesn't necessarily lead to a better health to work harder, however, often it does lead to better business results.

I dispute the "better business results" claim, I don't think that's factually true. But let's assume it is, why then is wealth so much more concentrated[0] in the US? Let's assume that the US did have "better business results" and let's also assume that that is the result of worse working conditions. Why then are the workers, working in worse conditions, not benefiting from it directly? Seems like, if that were true,…

Workers are benefiting from it, at least financially. The median income in the U.S. is more than 20% higher than in Finland, adjusted for cost of living: https://economistsview.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451b33869e20133.... (Note also that the American work-week is only about 7% longer than the Finish work-week.) That difference increases as you go into the upper middle class.

But for the bottom 10%, which in the U.S. largely consists of people who do not work, U.S. incomes are a third lower.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#75

Post by bitL »

jgust wrote: post #71
bitL wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increased productivity doesn't lead to increased wages and increased automation doesn't lead to less work/lower number of days/hours at work. Management plays dominance game, that only works when employees are made feel frustrated and stressed; any move towards happiness like reduced hours and work from home/remotely diminishes any gains from dominance game; relaxed employees with many options would require any monet…

You state this like it's a natural fact. That's how it is in many places, _today_. It doesn't have to be this way. As far as I know, there is no law of physics that has us locked into this way of operating society.

It's a fact in majority of companies; I have experiences with two companies that ran on different principles and were wildly profitable, so it could be done differently. Also, I am pretty much disgusted by what I observe, but it's an unfortunate part of reality and I am not going to unsee it to feel better about whatever. If you want to change something for the better, you need to understand what is wrong and what is better, hoping people after you would recognize what was wrong in your approach and correct it even more instead of regressing/oscillating.

The problem is much more complex though, being happy puts no pressure to change things and leads to stale/weak societies/companies; for some reason we humans need some form of pressure to give our best... Of course, it's difficult to motivate oneself when you see that upper management turned into parasites with sociopathic tendencies, ruling you like you were animals without brain, not even hiding their intent, and giving you as little money as they can get away with even during times of exponential expansion of their profitability.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#76

Post by mathieuh »

danmaz74 wrote: post #57
rficcaglia wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Low taxes. Edit: not anecdotal. I personally know 3 execs from Scandinavian countries who tell me this is why they moved here. Also health care. They travel back to EU for routine stuff, but when they need elective procedures or advanced treatments you just cannot get those back in the EU.

> They travel back to EU for routine stuff, but when they need elective procedures or advanced treatments you just cannot get those back in the EU Which advanced procedures aren't available in the EU? By the way, you can find private clinics in most EU countries if you don't want to use public health providers.

Yes, in the UK most professional jobs will offer private health as a benefit, plus NHS rules for getting on lists for operations are pretty fair, essentially if you can prove it’s affecting your life you can get operations for lots of things. There are the classic tabloid stories of people getting boob jobs and gender reassignment surgery on the NHS but I’m sure for the people affected it was a godsend.

My own brother got his ear pinned back when he was a teenager because he was being bullied about it at school. Cost nothing and happened within a couple of months of GP appointment.

And obviously being a highly developed western country you can find private clinics for just about anything you want.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#77

Post by fsloth »

rayiner wrote: post #69
fsloth wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mexico has the worst productivity of the listed countries and the longest workweek: https://time.com/4621185/worker-productivity-countries/ For a large population working longer gives no obvious benefit. It might work for you and your family! But globally, for any general population, you can't squeeze out more than the 7-8 hours of productive work per day and for even some fields this is a stretch. So, even if there…

You're mixing up several different things. "Productivity" is a measure of GDP created by labor. That has several significant implications: First, productivity is heavily influenced by technology and financialization of the economy. A programmer working 8 hours per day creates a much larger GDP than a factory worker working 8 hours per day. So you can't compare the productivity of workers in a place like Mexico, where…

What a fantastic reply. I'm now more convinced the point of view you expressed in your argument is more correct than mine :)

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#78

Post by xornox »

HNcantBtrustd wrote: post #31
jks wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the fall of Nokia (even though it didn't go completely out of business) had a big impact, especially in some regions. Here is a rough timeline: https://www.quora.com/How-has-the-decline-of-Nokia-affected-...

It doesn't explain what life is like due to losing that industry. We are told of Utopia in Europe, but aren't told these stories.

Nordic countries are quite good if you want give away some personal freedoms. A reverse side of security is always loss of liberty in some way. Some people like it and some not. I don’t.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#79

Post by xornox »

alkonaut wrote: post #14
rayiner wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What does cultural homogeneity have to do with it? Homogenous cultures have an easier time agreeing to all do the same thing. It’s called establishing social norms. I went to a STEM magnet high school that was about 1/3 Asian when I was there and is now 2/3 Asian. It was already known as a pressure cooker when I was a kid, and the competitiveness went way up since then. Why? Well I was one of those Asians. My dad g…

> he told me I had to work 16 hours a day to be successful. "Success" in what sense? When have you succeeded? How much should a 16h/day workweek pay for it to be a "success" if you have kids? Would the kids agree on the assessment?

And why you should be successful? This is just life - existing and being is success.

Re: Why Finland leads the world in flexible work

#80

Post by oblio »

verttii wrote: post #45
Someone1234 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dispute the "better business results" claim, I don't think that's factually true. But let's assume it is, why then is wealth so much more concentrated[0] in the US? Let's assume that the US did have "better business results" and let's also assume that that is the result of worse working conditions. Why then are the workers, working in worse conditions, not benefiting from it directly? Seems like, if that were true,…

In contrast, if USA is not performing better then why are most of the digital innovations of US origin? Why do like half of the world's tech billionaires live in Silicon Valley? While Finland has maybe 1? The Scandinavian countries focus on leveling the playing field for everyone. It allows the less privileged to build a good life, but it also hinders the most ambitious ones. Whereas USA is happy to focus on the extr…

The US has 330+ million people and Finland has 7 or so... :-)
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