Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service • Hacker News Board

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#71

Post by dkersten » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:34 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #57

dkersten wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

but fundamentally the web apps for airlines are dirty hacks layered on top of mainframe systems Thats no excuse.

Airlines are one of the most economically marginal, shitty businesses out there. ("easiest way to become a millionaire in the airline industry is to start out a billionaire"). They're also not particularly good at software development. The legacy carriers are huge, and have built software over decades. I think the low hanging fruit in the airline industry is to hire staff from outside the airline industry in all cust…

Nevermind all that. My comment was purely targetted at the text I quoted.

I just meant that saying "my online system sucks and you shouldn't care (or should be complacent) because its just a hack on top of some legacy system" isn't an excuse you should accept.

Just because you do not feel its worthwhile to replace the underlying system (and I'm not arguing over whether it is or isn't), doesn't make it alright that the end result is bad and certainly does not mean people should accept that reason as an excuse.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#72

Post by cryptoz » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:35 PM UTC

alain94040 wrote: post #38

I disagree. First, I'm very surprised that you were not aware of the policy that if you don't take the first part of an itinerary, you won't be able to catch up half-way. I guess it's something everyone learns very quickly. Second, your proposal that United should fix their prices is disingenuous. They would if it didn't mean bankruptcy for them. The reason they do that is that most of their income comes from busines…

> First, I'm very surprised that you were not aware of the policy that if you don't take the first part of an itinerary, you won't be able to catch up half-way.

Why are you surprised at this? The airline itself specifically told him he could do this: he got the early-check-in email saying his flight was okay. It seems reasonable for him to believe that his flight was okay.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#73

Post by rdl » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:39 PM UTC

jmtame wrote: post #68

edw519 wrote: post #60

...I certainly never take to using WePay’s corporate blog as a pulpit for my attacks. Then don't. Ever. Here's why: It's standard knowledge that your second leg will be canceled if you miss your first leg. It's been that way for 30 years. You have just demonstrated your inability to deal with a standard curve ball. No big deal. As individuals, we all run into that from time to time. You also complained about customer…

why would they tell him he could check in on the return flight if this is such a common thing? why not a notification saying "you missed your first flight so we canceled everything. warning: don't come to the airport and try to check in, buy some new tickets instead because that's what people have been doing for 30 years now." the airline screwed up here too, especially if he's someone (like myself) who didn't know a…

The place to warn about this would be before he missed his flight (or at initial booking, but it would annoy frequent travelers to be presented information like this every single time they book; it's in the rules of carriage).

I've flown on some airlines where they send mail encouraging online checkin which also includes "miss your flight" information. And, I've flown others where if you miss you flight, they call or email or SMS you and try to work with you on rebooking to a later flight (either standby for free or a small fee, or rebooking for $50-150), plus any difference in fare. This would still support price discrimination and market segmentation.

The vast majority of people who miss their outbound leg are still wanting travel on the outbound leg at a later time, not to burn the outbound leg and take the return leg. That is the failure mode to try to optimize, not the return leg.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#74

Post by jpwagner » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:39 PM UTC

hvs wrote: post #61

jpwagner wrote: post #42

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worlds_largest_airlines Notice that a search for "Virgin" on this page yields zero results. Being the David and being the Goliath involve completely different strategies. *edit: HN trims the apostrophe from "World's". Manually add it if you want to visit the page.

That article doesn't exist.

see edit. HN trims the apostrophe from "World's".

and thanks for putting in the effort to comment, but not search for the page that DOES exist.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#75

Post by zacharycohn » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:39 PM UTC

Tamerlin wrote: post #64

aberman wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, I don't find flying particularly frustrating. Waiting on the runway, getting kicked off my flight because it's overbooked, getting stuck in the airport - it goes with the territory, and I am okay with that. My grudge with United (and subsequent love affair with Virgin) was about the way they treat their customers.

IMO this is actually a problem. We're so used to being treated like crap that we take it for granted and accept it. If you have six widget, and you sell seven, you have to give the 7th a refund, otherwise it's fraud. When an airline has six seats and sells 8, the extra two buyers get the shaft, and that's ok?

Well, when you get bumped they put you on another flight, and often offer free flights to the people who volunteer to get bumped...

So it's not really fraud. They don't just strand you at the airport.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#76

Post by rdl » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:43 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #67

rdl wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Getting in trouble for interlocking round trips is exceedingly rare, and you can always just book on multiple carriers. Burning the return leg of a roundtrip is usually also totally penalty free. Getting off at a stopover is much more borderline, and it's almost impossible to get your luggage checked only to the stopover destination.

Lucky for me is I hate travelling with anything but hand luggage. So, unless I'm going to be away for a long period of time or theres some other reason why I may need more luggage than I can carry ont he plane with me, this isn't a problem for me.

I personally think flying SFO-LAX is absurd; I drive SFO-LAX, SFO-PDX, SFO-LAS, SFO-SAN, and usually SFO-SEA vs. fly. And I fly Virgin America or Alaska instead of United when possible because I'm very familiar with United's quality of service and product.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#77

Post by jmtame » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:44 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #73

jmtame wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why would they tell him he could check in on the return flight if this is such a common thing? why not a notification saying "you missed your first flight so we canceled everything. warning: don't come to the airport and try to check in, buy some new tickets instead because that's what people have been doing for 30 years now." the airline screwed up here too, especially if he's someone (like myself) who didn't know a…

The place to warn about this would be before he missed his flight (or at initial booking, but it would annoy frequent travelers to be presented information like this every single time they book; it's in the rules of carriage). I've flown on some airlines where they send mail encouraging online checkin which also includes "miss your flight" information. And, I've flown others where if you miss you flight, they call or…

agreed, they should do better at making sure you read this. but they shouldn't bury this somewhere EULA-style.

that's an aside. the point is: they told him to check-in. their system is flawed. they took the time to hire someone to program the ability to cancel the whole flight, but they ignored the part where they tell him to check-in. to make things worse, they treated him terribly when he tried to and didn't realize his "mistake."

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#78

Post by rdl » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:46 PM UTC

jasonkester wrote: post #59

United in particular amaze me at how little regard they show for customer retention. Last time I flew with them I stood in line as every single customer got into the same fight with them when they sprung their new "$50 extra to check a bag" policy on them with zero notice. I watched a dozen people in a row vow to never fly United again in the span of 20 minutes. Amazing that they can survive except in a landscape whe…

That would be Cathay Pacific, Singapore Airlines, Qatar Airways, Etihad, or to a lesser extent, Emirates or Asiana. It's really just US flagged airlines that are incredibly bad (I've flown several million miles internationally, and aside from Royal Jordanian (which flies to Iraq), Ariana (the Afghan Airline) and Kam Air (the Southwest of Afghanistan), no one approaches US standards of quality. Some of the LCCs in Europe (Ryan Air) are kind of painful, but so cheap that it makes up for it. LCCs in Asia (Tiger, Jetstar, etc.) tend to be more like Virgin America or Southwest.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#79

Post by jamiequint » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:48 PM UTC

kenjackson wrote: post #48

_delirium wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main reason is really to try to maintain their market segmentation by prohibiting people from buying tickets other than exactly the ones they choose to fly. If they allowed this, it'd be impossible for them to charge more for one-way tickets than round-trip tickets, as many airlines do. Other prohibited things include: buying a one-stop "A->B->C" ticket and then getting off in B, because you really wanted to go A…

I think its even worse. Airlines and their employees know that you have little negotiation power at the terminal (cost, schedule, and security make you virtually powerless). A story I have is years ago at Continental. I came to the desk to check my suitcase. It was over some weight and so the lady said I had to pay, I believe $75. I had some swag in the bag that I could throwaway that would bring me under. Of course…

Situations like this are exactly why I'm really glad chargebacks exist.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#80

Post by rmc » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:49 PM UTC

swombat wrote: post #16

If you would like the European equivalent of this customer experience, I warmly recommend you try out Air France. If you want even worse, try Ryanair. They actually pride themselves on treating their customers like cattle, dumb-ass sheep to be fleeced at every opportunity.

Yes Ryanair almost pride themselves on being rude. They customer service response is that you can coy someone else if you don't pike them. However they are ridiculously cheap. I was in a long distance relationship with someone in a different country 300km away. We saw each other almost every weekend or second weekend thanks to Ryanair. Return international flight frequently cost €30, sometimes less. I have more than once had a flight cost €0.01, including all taxes/charges.

Ryanair are rude and uncaring, but damn, they made flights cheap amd available.