Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service • Hacker News Board

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#51

Post by dkersten » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:06 PM UTC

rdl wrote: post #36

I'm curious if he's ever flown much before. Missing the first leg of a discount coach r/t canceling the entire reservation has been standard since at least 1980. Yes, their online systems should be better at explaining what happens once you've missed a flight, but fundamentally the web apps for airlines are dirty hacks layered on top of mainframe systems, and don't handle exceptions particularly well. Airline pricing…

but fundamentally the web apps for airlines are dirty hacks layered on top of mainframe systems

Thats no excuse.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#52

Post by dangrover » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:06 PM UTC

The thing that gets me isn't any one specific policy, but the general sentiment companies like United project to their customers. It's pretty much "We hate your guts and think you're dumb enough to fall for any number of ways that we're going to try to fuck you over."

A lot of these companies, if they were a person and not an entity, would probably be diagnosed with antisocial personality disorder.

They spend a lot of money on loyalty programs, but I think the best way to engender loyalty is to actually treat people like human beings.

Companies like JetBlue, Virgin, and Southwest are equally conniving, but they certainly work a LOT harder to hide it. And for that reason, I'll always take a flight from one of them, even if it's a little bit pricier. I know there will be less surprises and things that piss me off. I feel like they're actually working to try to earn my business.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#53

Post by krschultz » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:07 PM UTC

gabrielroth wrote: post #14

jwegan wrote: post #6

I'm always astounded why so many companies seem more willing to lose a loyal repeat customer than take a small hit on the bottom line for a particular transaction. Companies like NewEgg, Costco, and Zappos have demonstrated how being willing to take a small hit on some transactions can engender a fanatical customer base, but it seems most companies still prefer to be penny wise and pound foolish.

This works differently for retail businesses than it does for airlines. If I'm looking to buy a pair of shoes online, I have multiple options that are all roughly the same price. But I always buy them from Zappo's because I know I'll get good customer service. When I buy a plane ticket, I have a specific route I need to fly on a particular date. I want the flight with the fewest stops. The price difference is often h…

If you live in a metro area with multiple carriers, often the price differences are negligable. If they weren't, there would be no point of frequent flyer miles. They are trying to lock you into their airline even if their prices are slightly higher, but if the prices on the other airline are drastically lower (hundreds of dollars), it wouldn't make any sense to stick with your normal carrier.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#54

Post by dkersten » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:11 PM UTC

jackowayed wrote: post #32

arethuza wrote: post #25

Why not send an email/text to you saying that they noticed that he missed the first part of the flight and: 1) Is he OK? 2) Does he still want to use the second leg of the flight (and maybe check in now)? With the default being that he will want to use it? With a simple bit of communication, that could have been completely automated, they managed to annoy a paying customer.

Well, in their mind, he's an evil guy that's trying to game the pricing system that they broke by allowing it to be cheaper to buy a round-trip than to buy one half of that round trip. So if they let him keep his return flight, they wouldn't really be preventing anyone from doing that.

Well, even a simple text/email like "You have missed the first trip in a round trip flight, so your return flight has been cancelled as outlined in our terms of service" would have cleared everything up before he got to the airport. Yes, he would still need to find his own way bac, but at least he is made aware of the circumstances instead of being jerked around.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#55

Post by Tamerlin » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:13 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #23

swombat wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If he was no longer a customer, I assume they refunded his money? If they did not refund his money, he was still a customer - a customer who was denied his product, certainly, but a customer nonetheless. If you buy my product, and I don't deliver it to you for reason X, that doesn't mean you're not my customer. It just means I suck at delivering my product.

He bought a seat on the plane. That he didn't use it doesn't mean it wasn't still his seat. If I ran the airline, I'd give him a 50% refund for the return leg, but if he didn't notify me that he wouldn't be taking the first flight I may not have been able to offer that seat to another paying customer.

Almost every flight during peak travel periods is oversold, which means that the airlines are selling more seats than they have (which sounds like fraud, since if you end up in an oversold flight and no one cancels, they ask the PASSENGERS to make the sacrifice, even though the reality is that the airline sold something that they no longer had)... so there was almost certainly someone else who got his seat.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#56

Post by gamble » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:13 PM UTC

rayval wrote: post #28

far33d wrote: post #8

It's easy to chalk this up to whining and ignore it since it comes off as a rant. The problem is that United and its employees don't consider service a priority, not that they have a policy about canceling flights when you skip the original leg. I've had this experience multiple times with United and have found them to be the worst offender of all the legacy airlines. They are a mess and they are outright hostile to…

I agree. I went through a similar experience with United several years ago, and I will never fly them again unless the choice is walking. As the article points out, there are structural problems with their pricing, their policies (and how they communicate them), and most importantly their customer service culture (or lack thereof).

The problem for the legacy airlines is that they started in the pre-deregulation era with excellent pay and benefits for their employees. Deregulation eliminated the financial basis for those salaries, and as a result the legacies have been engaged in a decades-long war with their employees to lower costs. It shouldn't be surprising that customer service is poor when people work in such a hostile environment. There's always a huge difference in morale between growing and shrinking companies. The post-deregulation entrants dont even have to pay more than the legacies; the fact that they're not constantly attacking their own employees is an enormous advantage.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#57

Post by rdl » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:13 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #51

rdl wrote: post #36

I'm curious if he's ever flown much before. Missing the first leg of a discount coach r/t canceling the entire reservation has been standard since at least 1980. Yes, their online systems should be better at explaining what happens once you've missed a flight, but fundamentally the web apps for airlines are dirty hacks layered on top of mainframe systems, and don't handle exceptions particularly well. Airline pricing…

but fundamentally the web apps for airlines are dirty hacks layered on top of mainframe systems Thats no excuse.

Airlines are one of the most economically marginal, shitty businesses out there. ("easiest way to become a millionaire in the airline industry is to start out a billionaire"). They're also not particularly good at software development. The legacy carriers are huge, and have built software over decades.

I think the low hanging fruit in the airline industry is to hire staff from outside the airline industry in all customer-facing roles (cabin crew, gate staff), which is what Virgin America has done (they largely recruited from hotels vs. other airlines. Hotel/hospitality staff are generally fairly awesome at customer service, even when enforcing rules). That is going to be way more appreciated by customers than doing a billion dollar ticketing overhaul.

United is definitely aware of how to sell tickets which are fully changeable and rerouteable. They also know how to run shuttle service. They just choose not to do so for the cheapest coach ticket price.

I do agree they should have been better at customer relations, even while enforcing the same policy (although if it turns into "please leave or we will call security", there are probably two parties behaving suboptimally). In their defense it's a heavy travel period, and if I were waiting behind him in line, I would have been pissed as well if they had devoted huge amounts of time to explaining their ticketing procedures in depth to him and trying to console him.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#58

Post by duffbeer703 » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:14 PM UTC

stanleydrew wrote: post #10

zacharycohn wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wasn't complaining about having to wait 4 hours. He was complaining about the lack of respect they have for customers (not specifically him, but in general), and he was comparing his experience between Virgin and United. With one, he was surprised by an unfortunate, not-well-known policy and OFFERED NO HELP, versus the other where they went above and beyond what he expected from them (sell him a ticket to get home…

Since when is selling you a ticket "above and beyond" expectations for an airline?

Being treated like a human being is "above and beyond" with respect to airlines.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#59

Post by jasonkester » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:15 PM UTC

United in particular amaze me at how little regard they show for customer retention. Last time I flew with them I stood in line as every single customer got into the same fight with them when they sprung their new "$50 extra to check a bag" policy on them with zero notice.

I watched a dozen people in a row vow to never fly United again in the span of 20 minutes. Amazing that they can survive except in a landscape where every other airline is just as bad.

In our case, we'd actually booked our flight through a different airline with a sane baggage policy clearly stated on their website, and took extra steps to make sure we fell within the free allowance. Only on arriving at the airport did we discover that we were "code sharing" with United and thus subject to their extra fees.

One day somebody will take Southwest & Virgin's attitude towards customer service and apply it to a major airline. And they'll dominate.

Re: Startup Lessons, Courtesy of United Airlines’ Crappy Customer Service

#60

Post by edw519 » Wed, Dec 01, 2010, 7:15 PM UTC

...I certainly never take to using WePay’s corporate blog as a pulpit for my attacks.

Then don't. Ever. Here's why:

It's standard knowledge that your second leg will be canceled if you miss your first leg. It's been that way for 30 years.

You have just demonstrated your inability to deal with a standard curve ball. No big deal. As individuals, we all run into that from time to time.

You also complained about customer service (in the airline industry, no less). That's like complaining about the weather. I suppose you deserve a pass on that, too.

But your mistake was using your company blog, unintentionally transferring your ineptness to your company. Big mistake. Now people might think, "If he can't navigate a weekend trip, can't handle his vendors, and then complains about it publicly, why should I trust him with my money."

Please do yourself a big favor and delete this blog post before too many of your potential customers see it. Don't make a bad experience worse by threatening your business. With all the hard work already invested, it deserves better.