Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#71

Post by PavlovsCat » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:07 AM UTC

MRD85 wrote: post #34

jimmy1 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but I don't understand your defeatism. > I publicly resigned from Google Because for every one that resigned, there are most likely hundreds that stay. I do admire your courage and willing to take a stand. In the face of an oppressive government like China I hope I would have the courage to do the same.

And tons that will be willing to replace them.

Anyone who says "but others will do it instead" to excuse something they're doing is those other people. And someone doing something evil that I chose to not do doesn't actually replace me -- I'm still me, and I'm still glad to have made that choice.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#72

Post by gowld » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:08 AM UTC

stri8ed wrote: post #62

math_and_stuff wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not okay with a company headquartered in a democratic country actively building tools to suppress political inquiry and organizing. To be clear, this included Google literally building a blacklist containing the terms 'human rights' and 'student protest' and ensuring that the Chinese Communist Party could track Chinese citizens' queries by their phone number.

Besides the implicit endorsement, does it really change anything on the ground? Existing search engines are already censored in China, and those that wish to bypass via VPN, can still do so after Google releases their censored version.

All those employees count be doing something better if they cancel their authoritarian oppression project.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#73

Post by ariwilson » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:11 AM UTC

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

"they'll also have complete control over them" "But why should Googlers care?"

This is a dumb take. Googlers are the one reporting/protesting all of these things. This is a very different situation than Facebook where most of the leaking has been external. It's also different than HN's reaction to Apple, which apparently can whatever it wants to its Chinese users.

The world is not black and white, it is gray. And some companies are more active than others in trying to find a balance between morality and realism.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#74

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:14 AM UTC

pmoriarty wrote: post #18

whoisjuan wrote: post #9

I find kind of hypocrite to reject the idea of a company working in a product that serves the Chinese market (which, btw, is ultra protectionist), while actively consuming goods that are manufactured in China. I'm not saying that people don't have the right to morally object something like this project, but it's kind of baffling that many are loudly voicing their concerns and demonizing any company that is attempting…

The perfect is the enemy of the good. Do you accept money for your work? Odds are that some of that money was gained through less than 100% ethical means -- if not directly by the person/company you got the money from, then perhaps by the person/company they got it from, etc. At some point down the line, some of it might be called "dirty money" or maybe even "blood money". So what do you do? Do you stop accepting mon…

[deleted]

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#75

Post by fucking_tragedy » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:17 AM UTC

yorwba wrote: post #69

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is blind optimism in the face of hard facts. If Google wants to play in China, they will have to bend to the whims of the CCP. No amount of employee foot-dragging will change that fact. > For the same reason, I don't think creating a censored search engine for the Chinese market is bad in itself. This is one the arguments that got trotted out by Google employees last time Dragonfly made headlines. The CCP is put…

They will have to bend, no doubt, but if they bend even slightly less than everyone else, that's still a win.

No, it's not. "Everyone else is doing it" is not an excuse to help put people in camps.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#76

Post by lapnitnelav » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:17 AM UTC

ProAm wrote: post #6

Why would they? Google fears China is going to create their own version of Google and will lose access to the country and possibly more of Asia. They are going to try very hard to keep their foot in the door there.

Like Baidu? I know there's also a Youtube equivalent.

This ship has long sailed I'm afraid.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#77

Post by Rebelgecko » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:21 AM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #11

topspin wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why would they? Morals, perhaps.

Google censors it’s results everywhere. The main difference is in one instance it’s censoring itself + it’s censoring according to localized laws + some activist input (both right and left). In China it’s basically also following laws to censor material plus doing some real-time censoring and removals. So it could be argued it’s the kind of censorship that people disagree with rather than in principle being against i…

The only censorship I've noticed on Google is when there's a copyright takedown on a page of search results. And for those, Google gives you a link to the takedown request, which naturally gives you a nice list of all the URLs that were censored.

Does Google do other censorship that isn't noted in the search results? (particularly in the US?)

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#78

Post by yorwba » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

fucking_tragedy wrote: post #75

yorwba wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They will have to bend, no doubt, but if they bend even slightly less than everyone else, that's still a win.

No, it's not. "Everyone else is doing it" is not an excuse to help put people in camps.

It is if you doing it puts fewer people in camps than the alternative.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#79

Post by o10449366 » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:26 AM UTC

ariwilson wrote: post #73

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

"they'll also have complete control over them" "But why should Googlers care?" This is a dumb take. Googlers are the one reporting/protesting all of these things. This is a very different situation than Facebook where most of the leaking has been external. It's also different than HN's reaction to Apple, which apparently can whatever it wants to its Chinese users. The world is not black and white, it is gray. And som…

Here are two realistic facts:

1. Google would be absolutely fine if they do not expand into China. They would not collapse or lose their competitive edge if they refrained from doing so. You've worked at Google for over a decade so you should know this is true.

2. Google's censored search engine would absolutely facilitate Xi Jinping ability to censor the Chinese people and would set a dangerous precedent for other governments to make similar demands.

Google, which is already one of the wealthiest and most secure companies in the world, is developing a tool for suppression and bending to the demands of a dictator in the name of profit. Perhaps you have a different moral stance than I do, Ari, but I see nothing "gray" about this blind pursuit of money at the cost of over a billion people's free will.

Re: Google Employees Uncover Ongoing Work on Censored China Search

#80

Post by sytelus » Tue, Mar 05, 2019, 2:29 AM UTC

math_and_stuff wrote: post #26

o10449366 wrote: post #21

Google execs know that as long as they have the best benefits in the industry and keep their workers cushy they'll also have complete control over them. This is because when you're at the top of the food chain, very few people are actually willing to put their money where their mouth is and take meaningful action. It's deliciously hypocritical to see Google workers here (and HN posters in general) lament Facebook wor…

Pushback from employees, human rights groups, and congress has already significantly set back the project. The fight has to continue, but I don't understand your defeatism. Source: I publicly resigned from Google over dragonfly and dedicated months of my life and income to fighting it.

I admire you courage but have you considered the possibility that you might be wrong on this? Probability that China would change anything because of lack of Google products is about zero. In fact, not having Google benefits them even more because now there is no one reviewing of any censorship rules. If Google is there (1) they can minimize censorship as much as possible by pushing back frequently (2) people in China benefits from access to much better search and subsequently gets better educated over time.

Consider the fact that vast majority of search queries will not be affected by the censorship. Your actions are depriving billion+ people from these queries. Think of all the things kids could have found out about science and western literature by better search that they currently aren't.

Finally, I would to leave a note on cultural aspects. Being in western world, we assume that every culture in the world wants democracy. We firmly believe that every culture resents censorship. From my contact with many asian folks, I have changed my assumptions and such belief. Chinese culture is fundamentally different. Government is not looked at some agency that people allowed to govern but rather an agency that is charted to protect culture even if it is at the expense of individualism. My theory is that even if Chinese government was toppled, the replacement would still have same characteristics because that is the expectation that people have from their government.