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How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

anaxi.com

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Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#71
Here's a profile of a developer:

- Easy going and pleasant.

- Really interested in programming and tech in general

- Talks intelligently about the problem at hand. Asks all the right questions. Agrees a plan of action in collaboration with colleagues.

- Creates systems that definitely appear to work

- Code looks pretty sane. Structure is right. Style seems good.

- Always very responsive to problems. Jumps straight on them.

- Every problem fixed another one seems to pop up.

- Eventually you dig into the code and problem space in detail and you find that in a very subtle, even complex way the whole thing is completely wrong, the problem space misunderstood and everything patched over with little fixes to get things working for a particular case.

In the end no system created by the person is useable without major remediation by another developer.

Anyone experienced this?

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Arrogance has very little to do with thinking you know a lot, or disagreeing with others, and everything to do with failing to follow social protocol. If you let other people speak, pause long enough that they feel like you are giving their words a fair evaluation, and then don't use words that they must interpret as telling them they are wrong you will not be seen as arrogant. This is true even if you rarely or neve…

Point 3 though. At some point how can you be so demure? Sometimes people are just stupid and wrong and need to get checked. Some guy working for a year getting nothing done and pretending like its some other problem than what it actually is needs to be forcefully briefed on their ignorance not 'hrmm well you see we tried it this way'.

> Some guy working for a year getting nothing done and pretending like its some other problem than what it actually is

This is a management issue. In a rational engineering organization this guy's manager would be like "okay, so we know there's a problem with this tool. Now how do we work around the tool so we can move on to another problem?" And if the conversation becomes "workarounds are stupid we need to make them fix their tool" then the manager needs to be all like "I agree with you in a perfect world that's how things would work, but we're engineers being paid to solve people's problems and not to build the perfect software system. So build the workaround so we can solve the problem and we'll circle around and fix the tool when we have time."

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#73
post #18

I thunk there's a second "flavor" of arrogance, where a person believes they're the smartest, but not most knowledgeable, in the room. These people will openly admit they can improve and seek training, partly because they believe they're capable of anything. They don't think they're at the top of the mountain, just that their mountain has no peak. The real problem is they believe "lazy" coworkers will eventually be b…

I just read the article and was like “I don’t think I suffer from these much at all” then read this comment. This is very insightful and also something I just realized that I greatly suffer from. Thanks.

I relate to this.

I think one of the symptoms is not picking up enough detailed understanding of anything because you keep moving around and don't believe in most external knowledge anyway (eg. don't want to learn [beyond a certain depth] SQL, it's so ugly on some inner level I'd much rather start with datalog and build my own up, don't want to learn economics I don't trust those science cargo-culters). But the other reason you don't want to specialize is that it would be to accept a limit on yourself (OK I'm going to get specialize on getting very good at c++, my upper salary cap is 500k and likely cap 200k, career is mapped out).

One of the things that's slowly curing me I think is running into examples of systems that are genuinely very heavy to understand/improve, and examples of people who are just unarguably higher ceiling in different ways than you.

eg. go watch a SGM play 30 second hyperbullet chess, I don't think I have either the memory or raw processing speed to do what they do, ever. If those guys exist a lot of other people have way higher ceilings. Also realize that chess (and by extension must be a lot of other activities) rely on both a crazy cpu, an amazing memory and an insanely built-out internal database of positions and ideas, and since my cpu is good but not unbelievable, my memory is nothing special and my time is limited there must be a lot of activities I'll never really be good at. Also just getting older and staying unsuccessful relative to your ego, you just start to compromise I think.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#74
post #65

> Developers can’t easily go back to where they were right > before an interruption. They need to get into the mindset > for development and then slowly trace back to where they > left off. And every fellow developer knows that. I used to think like that too, but after 10 years programming in many environments, now I'm inclined to disagree. If I cannot refocus immediately after interruption - I know I'm doing somethi…

> Maybe the thing is too complex and must be cut down to smaller pieces

i suspect that for many, it's not necessarily their fault Thing is 'too complex' (though perhaps this is tangential); nor are they necessarily provided the opportunity, time or even permission to 'cut down to smaller pieces'. piles of work, looming deadlines and all that.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#75
post #18

I thunk there's a second "flavor" of arrogance, where a person believes they're the smartest, but not most knowledgeable, in the room. These people will openly admit they can improve and seek training, partly because they believe they're capable of anything. They don't think they're at the top of the mountain, just that their mountain has no peak. The real problem is they believe "lazy" coworkers will eventually be b…

I have been concerned about occupying a similar space myself. The great secret that we all do well to remember is that being humble is simply a matter of practicing being humble. In particular, when I treat other team members as experts in what they do, and trust that they'll value me for whatever it is that I do, I become much more efficient, and feel more relaxed too. Yes, there are still times that I notice myself acting vain, but these days a few slow, grounding breaths goes a long way toward resetting me.

In fact, I wonder if the narcissism you speak of might have more to do with insecurity, deep down. In my experience, when I see myself taking a behavior that I consciously am against, the cause tends to be emotional and the solution tends to be to gently, curiously observe those situations and start questioning how I feel. When I love and take care of my emotional world, it becomes way easier to interact in a way I feel is more optimal on the fly.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#76
post #71

Here's a profile of a developer: - Easy going and pleasant. - Really interested in programming and tech in general - Talks intelligently about the problem at hand. Asks all the right questions. Agrees a plan of action in collaboration with colleagues. - Creates systems that definitely appear to work - Code looks pretty sane. Structure is right. Style seems good. - Always very responsive to problems. Jumps straight on…

Because they're fixing some other problem they want to work on. Not the problem they actually have. They know it.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#77

9. Refuse to do any maintenance and only work on new projects. 10. Hide your actual productivity. IE: get done with your coding tasks in half the time, leaving other devs have to fix all the bugs that QA kick back. (This is probably a managerial issue, actually, but perpetuated by devs who do # 9.)

#9 for sure. Probably a side effect of being sloppy or writing bad code.

My version of #9 I'm dealing with is: Is this an feature that a customer will use? Or is it internal improvement? Yes to first, no to latter.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#78

> A team with a bad developer is way better off short one developer than it is with a bad element. How do you know that you just didn't communicate your issues well to the person? Is there a way to help them, you and your relationship improve so that you can be a stronger team? We all have blindspots and weaknesses, and weaknesses that fit together like puzzle-pieces tend to find each other until you resolve them. Th…

> How do you know that you just didn't communicate your issues well to the person?

When you encounter that person, you'll know. Some people just aren't capable of grocking certain things.

I had a guy on my team like this. He just wasn't getting it. At first, I would spend extra time with him, communicating the issue from every possible angle. He would almost always end up producing something so far off base. Everyone else on the team was sync'd but he just never got it.

The best part is that he refused to believe that he was incompetent. I say "best", because that gave me an easy way to get him to move on without firing him. I knew if I wrote him up one time, his pride would kick in, and he would start looking for another job. The plan worked perfectly.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#79

There's not a single thing in there that I don't recognize in myself at one time or another. I sometimes feel like I don't see anti-patterns as I go through my career, I fall over them and sprawl on the floor.

I read the article and thought to myself that there's not a single thing in there that I don't recognize in my coworkers. :) Fwiw, I think articles like there are really bullshit. They just make self-doubting people doubt themselves even more and the real assholes never understands that the advice applies to them.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#80

There's not a single thing in there that I don't recognize in myself at one time or another. I sometimes feel like I don't see anti-patterns as I go through my career, I fall over them and sprawl on the floor.

There's a common quote about an expert being someone who has made every possible mistake in the domain at least once. So you may be on the right path!
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