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How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

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Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#51

Post by zzzcpan »

ltbarcly3 wrote: post #36
meuk wrote: post #14

Common misconception, but that graph does not explain the Dunning-Kruger effect. It's actually more like a linear curve, it's just a little flatter than the graph of y = x. The Dunning-Kruger effect is that the best people underestimate their relative abilities, and the worst overestimate. So, the worst 10% may estimate they are about average, while the top 10% might estimate they are in the top 20%. These are more r…

People try to shoehorn Dunning-Kruger into situations where it doesn't make much sense. Dunning-Kruger boils down to something a lot like "people tend to think other people are like themselves". So if you are low-skill at some task, you tend to think other people are low-skill, and as a result you see yourself as roughly average. If you are high-skill at some task you tend to think that other people are also high ski…

> So if you are low-skill at some task, you tend to think other people are low-skill

Dunning-Kruger effect is not a way of thinking or reasoning about yourself or others, but a cognitive bias. You need to be put into a quick decision making mode where you have to compare your skill to others for it to skew your assessment.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#52

Post by mgkimsal »

jcranberry wrote: post #44
vharuck wrote: post #18

I thunk there's a second "flavor" of arrogance, where a person believes they're the smartest, but not most knowledgeable, in the room. These people will openly admit they can improve and seek training, partly because they believe they're capable of anything. They don't think they're at the top of the mountain, just that their mountain has no peak. The real problem is they believe "lazy" coworkers will eventually be b…

Just don't settle for being a 'jack', become an expert, and produce something you think is maintainable for yourself and your colleagues.

> Just don't settle for being a 'jack', become an expert

Expert in what? There will always be people "more expert" than me in any particular domain (specific tech, hobbies, whatever). At some point, there's diminishing returns in becoming 'expert' in things you don't need to be an expert in, when "competence" is enough.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#53

Post by sonnyblarney »

'Arrogance' is more often than not mostly a matter of perception. Truly arrogant people can seem nice - so we generally don't want to ascribe negative qualities like 'arrogant' to them.

'Real arrogance', and even greed, backstabbing - those can also done by people who seem to be well liked.

'Perceptive arrogance' I think is mostly a matter of posture, demeanour and communication. If you smile, let other people talk, have an easygoing manner, and are agreeable, you will not be perceived as 'arrogant' even though you may have all of the qualities of a truly arrogant person.

I don't think 'perceived arrogance' has anything to do with actually humility or gauge of one's own abilities, or of one's sense of self importance in the group.

If you're terse, blunt, dour or gregarious ... it can be perceived as arrogant.

'Real arrogance' i.e. the notion that one's thoughts and ideals matter more than others etc. I think is not even correlated with posture and communication style.

The most successful people in the corporate world are pure political players, and have never cared about outcomes, doing a good job - anything. All they care about is perception and their careers. But they are actually nice enough, generally charismatic.

Actually caring caring about a product can simply cause contention, and possibly give the perception of arrogance.

I prefer to consider arrogance in terms of measured behaviours, outcomes etc.. Glib political climbers to me are arrogant. Anyone actually trying to 'do a good job' and stepping on toes is just a bad communicator.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#54

Post by P_I_Staker »

arandr0x wrote: post #8

In my experience people provide excuses because they're being addressed by management in a way that is unnecessarily negative and/or management is wanting to find "guilty people" and not work out which is the best person for the job of fixing things. That the article is clearly refusing to even mention this casts a big shadow over the rest of its conclusions. Some of the other things are the result of personality (li…

Yup, "no excuses" is a stupid attitude. Say I wanted you alone to get me to Mars tomorrow. It's absurd to say "no excuses" when you fail. It's possible that you're making understandable demands, or they just don't know how to do it faster.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#55

Post by pnutjam »

mgkimsal wrote: post #52
jcranberry wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just don't settle for being a 'jack', become an expert, and produce something you think is maintainable for yourself and your colleagues.

> Just don't settle for being a 'jack', become an expert Expert in what? There will always be people "more expert" than me in any particular domain (specific tech, hobbies, whatever). At some point, there's diminishing returns in becoming 'expert' in things you don't need to be an expert in, when "competence" is enough.

In many offices, mere competency makes you the default expert.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#56

Post by P_I_Staker »

throwaway29492 wrote: post #48
zzzcpan wrote: post #24

Referencing Dunning-Kruger effect in any topic on software engineering is very arrogant and pretentious on itself. This says more about the author, than other people's stupidity. The article is just bad.

Also the "Negativity is infectious." feel-good bullshit. "If someone complains, it focuses the attention on the negative side of things." (...after a whole article complaining about behavior s/he does not like, ironically) If you want to see big disasters look in organizations where warnings are ignored as "negativity" and people blame the messengers.

Also, sometimes relentless negativity has some fringe benefits (moderate perfectionism). There's pros and cons. Just don't share that attitude with your coworkers. Hold yourself to a high standard, but be more relaxed with others.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#57

Post by RyanDagg »

vharuck wrote: post #18

I thunk there's a second "flavor" of arrogance, where a person believes they're the smartest, but not most knowledgeable, in the room. These people will openly admit they can improve and seek training, partly because they believe they're capable of anything. They don't think they're at the top of the mountain, just that their mountain has no peak. The real problem is they believe "lazy" coworkers will eventually be b…

I just read the article and was like “I don’t think I suffer from these much at all” then read this comment. This is very insightful and also something I just realized that I greatly suffer from. Thanks.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#58

Post by kakarot »

I thought I would make an addendum:

> We all know at least one developer who ... will always insist on following “best practices” without understanding why those practices are considered “best” (there is no such thing as best practices that adapt to every team)

For any developers out there recently starting on your path, I cannot stress the importance of taking the time to seek out best practices for new skills and technologies you pick up.

Find all the "best practices" you can, then ignore some of them for a while with some pilot code, then try to follow a combination of the ones that make most sense to you. Compare the two modules for legibility, clarity, maintainability and conciseness.

If, however, your team already has an entrenched way of doing things, don't be that jerk who comes to the party blasting their own music. Follow the existing style guides to a T and only offer advice for improvement after you've spent some time working with them.

Even if you immediately recognize a glaring problem in the way things are done, no one is going to take you seriously and you'll just come across as arrogant unless you already have rapport as a perceptive and helpful team member.

Take time to understand the culture around you, but don't, as this author suggests, ignore the tried and true devices of other cultures.

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#59

Post by CodeSheikh »

From my experience at various companies, "technical managers" fit well into most of these categories. Because actively coding and managing a team of multiple developers can bring most of these issues out of you. Example: "getting away with your architectural decisions because you are presenting your ideas with a managerial authority and ignoring better solutions presented by other senior developers."

Re: How to Make Other Developers Hate to Work with You

#60

Post by blotter_paper »

blackflame7000 wrote: post #33
vharuck wrote: post #18

I thunk there's a second "flavor" of arrogance, where a person believes they're the smartest, but not most knowledgeable, in the room. These people will openly admit they can improve and seek training, partly because they believe they're capable of anything. They don't think they're at the top of the mountain, just that their mountain has no peak. The real problem is they believe "lazy" coworkers will eventually be b…

Nobody’s mountain has a peak unless you either stop learning or die.

Yes, but different people are climbing different slopes; everyone can keep climbing, but that doesn't mean they'll reach the same height.
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