Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

washingtonpost.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

71–80 of 390 posts

Re: Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

#71

Post by Balgair »

perfmode wrote: post #6

Don’t discount the weight of emotional trauma and the self-sabotaging habits it has the potential to engender. Most people are slaves to their limbic systems. Most people don’t have self-education or resources to seek the help they need to fix these underlying problems. Society does them no favors. Media and advertising are designed to promote consumption. And not even healthy consumption. The idea that we are black…

This is very similar to the Allegory of the Chariot [0] from Plato's Phaedrus (370 BC) [1]. The Greeks were sometimes a keen bunch and Plato was one of the few of them that survived to the modern day. In this allegory, the person (really only males back then) had a soul divided into 3 parts: The charioteer, a base and somewhat evil pegasus, and a noble and good pegasus, with each of the pegasuses harnessed to the chariot. In life, the goal was to rise above the clouds to view heaven (more strictly, the 'forms' of Beauty, Reason, etc). The charioteer had to guide the base and the noble pegasuses and keep them from attacking each other, rioting, and generally distracting from the goal of reaching heaven.

In the allegory, the charioteer is the reasoning part of a person, the base pegasus was the 'appetites'/greed/hedonistic and the more 'limbic' parts of the person, the noble pegasus was the thumos of the person. Thumos is a very different mental model for us moderns, but was common for the ancient greeks. Think of it as 'spiritedness', but the word as used by Plato had elements of victory/political/hotheadedness/manliness baked into it [2]. The pegasuses weren't just 'good vs. evil', as even the thumos pegasus could get out of hand for the 'reasoning' charioteer, and the base pegasus was needed to tell the person to eat, to have intercourse, to react to danger, etc.

I point this out to give the parent commentor another mental model to help process things in life. We're MUCH more than just the 'higher' and 'lower' parts of ourselves. Plato thought of himself as a tripartite soul, and in typical Plato fashion, totally forgets about things like humor that can't be included in his Chariot Allegory. I'd encourage others to look into other traditions and philosophies to see of any other mental models work for them. 'Eudamonia'[3] is something we all should reach for; not every mental tool is one-size-fits-all.

[0] https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/what-is-a-man-the-al...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phaedrus_(dialogue)

[2] https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/got-thumos/

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eudaimonia

Re: Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

#72

Post by fromthestart »

vailprogrammer wrote: post #61
fromthestart wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will always be those who are unlucky and downtrodden. The point though is that media like these focus exclusively on this negative minority and exaggerate the negativity of the status quo. My parents are first generation immigrants who fled the Soviet Bloc and built their lives here by living within their means, and making practical decisions, like getting degrees with some probability of return on investment.…

> media like these focus exclusively on this negative minority and exaggerate the negativity of the status quo. Can you expand on 'this negative minority' ? Because I think there are a lot more poor people than 'upper middle class' people in this country. > I have little sympathy for people who consistently plan poorly and make bad decisions Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. To possess a c…

>Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait.

Exhibit B. Personal responsibility is increasingly fading from the collective American vocabulary, and articles like these, which normalize nonsensical, narcicisstic decisions, like throwing away a decade pursuing 3 low demand liberal arts degrees, make the media complicit. Self control absolutely is a moral, righteous trait, particularly because those without it lower the standards of living for those around them.

Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control. But in the U.S. a sizable minority, if not a majority, expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree.

Re: Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

#73

Post by spoonie »

crankylinuxuser wrote: post #51
spoonie wrote: post #19

I think housing costs are a big part of this. Things are almost perfectly stacked in favour of current property owners: oppose any new housing development near you which keeps land prices and rents high, while those wanting to buy or rent can’t or don’t vote and can’t as easily encourage more building as current owners can discourage it. And it’s so simple (not easy, but simple) too: build more to reduce housing cost…

There is no one part here. It's what many of us (with little power) have been saying for quite some time. 1. Minimum wage and poverty level are not increasing in relation to the power of the dollar. (1) (2) 2. Welfare of all sorts have been cut since the '80s with Reagan's attack on a felony fraudster [Welfare Queen] (3) (4) 3. Zoning regulations actively kill and impede lower rents and booming cities. (5) (6) 4. Emp…

Minneapolis seems like they might be getting a start on the zoning issues, they’ve removed all single-family zoning from the city!

Re: Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

#74

Post by bryanlarsen »

anoncoward111 wrote: post #4

Not even 200 years ago, most people exchanged labor for food. Currency was not used, as you most likely lived on the farm you worked for. There was no form of advancement to be seen, but also no rent, student loans, medical bills, child care etc. There was also no Whole Foods or freedom of speech. But how much farther have we really come in 2018? We have more things, but if you stop working, you will starve or go ill…

There's a big difference between Irish starvation in 1850 and the food insecurities of America in 2018.

The former resulted in ~ 1 million deaths. The latter results in a ~17.5% drop in standardized math scores in affected children.

The latter is definitely a massive problem, but we have made progress.

Re: Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

#76

Post by crankylinuxuser »

kurthr wrote: post #58
leoedin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the very fact that people in wildly different circumstances are living paycheck to paycheck is a huge flag that this isn't as simple a problem as "they don't get paid enough". Income and expenses are intricately linked by psychology. It's almost irrelevant what your paycheck is, if you're prone to this problem then somehow expenses will always rise to meet it. If expenses weren't actually determined by payche…

Which is why without tight controls on lending/debt Universal Basic Income will just lead to similarly desperate outcomes subsidized by the state.

UBI was only a small-ish step to a moneyless post-scarcity economy.

When rent is taken care of (cause there isn't rent), along with food, water, electricity, communication and more, what is there to 'buy'?

Re: Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

#77

Post by [deleted] »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #64
imustbeevil wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the vast majority of cases having a child is optional. This perfectly illustrates the problem the GP brings up. People have no concept of what agency is.

Oh for God's sake. Have a child, get dumped/divorced, now you're a single parent. Parents are supposed to be omniscient? God already has a job (and parenting didn't work out so good then either)

[deleted]

Re: Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

#78

Post by vailprogrammer »

fromthestart wrote: post #72
vailprogrammer wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> media like these focus exclusively on this negative minority and exaggerate the negativity of the status quo. Can you expand on 'this negative minority' ? Because I think there are a lot more poor people than 'upper middle class' people in this country. > I have little sympathy for people who consistently plan poorly and make bad decisions Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. To possess a c…

>Why not? Self control isn't some moral, righteousness, trait. Exhibit B. Personal responsibility is increasingly fading from the collective American vocabulary, and articles like these, which normalize nonsensical, narcicisstic decisions, like throwing away a decade pursuing 3 low demand liberal arts degrees, make the media complicit. Self control absolutely is a moral, righteous trait, particularly because those wi…

You don't think that you are lucky to have been born into an upper middle class family, without any serious psychological issues?

Someone born with mental problems is automatically an immoral, bad person?

> Somehow other cultures tend to place virtue in the development of discipline, a personal responsibility which can mitigate all kinds of external erosions of self control.

But what about all of the social safety nets in Europe? Seems like they take care of people in hard times, rather than tell them to just develop more discipline...?

>expect the world to throw money at them and their 3 children in LA for an advanced English degree.

Would you agree that hindsight is 20/20? How were these people supposed to know that they won't make money with their graduate degrees, years ago? They are in a tough spot because of bad choices made in the past, and so they deserve no sympathy now? They should be homeless?

Your parents, who fought their way to upper middle class as immigrants, what percent of your college did they pay for?

Re: Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

#79

Post by perfmode »

imustbeevil wrote: post #56
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when it is. Generalities aren't helpful to the single parent working retail. Expenses aren't always optional.

In the vast majority of cases having a child is optional. This perfectly illustrates the problem the GP brings up. People have no concept of what agency is.

There are powerful and influential institutions in the United States which limit access to birth control, sex education, and access to abortion.

Re: Living paycheck to paycheck is disturbingly common

#80

Post by DonnyV »

esotericn wrote: post #15

I'd like to read more about the history of the people in the article. The biggest issue as far as I can tell is that it's easy to 'lose' at any stage. You can make a ton of decisions starting from about age 15-20 that influence your degrees of freedom at age 40 (in the article there's a family of 3 that seemingly have little savings, for example). If you were born to a non wealthy household, the reality is that you s…

^^^ This 110%. I grew up in a poor family. Had friends that were well off and didn't have to think much about the future. I noticed early on that I just didn't have that luxury. Fortunately I was aware enough at an early age that every decision I make has to be a good one. I can't afford any failures. I don't think thats a good a way to become an adult or raise a society. By 25 I was at a good place but not without issues. I was having multiple anxiety attacks and all kinds of health issues. I made it out but with scars.

There has to be a better way.

Post reply on HN