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Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

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Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#71

Post by captain_perl »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #33
nutcracker46 wrote: post #3

The report identifies good preventive measures. Autotuning the ILS would be handy, as would an aural alert for lateral deviation, perhaps announcing, "Localizer, Localizer." The crew may have caught the closure of 28L and planned better with a review of NOTAMS before top of descent and including them in the approach briefing. When I'm up there, and sleepy, I ask for a coffee and pull out the NOTAMS for one last look…

How difficult is it to see what's happening on the ground at night from a plane? I've never been in a cockpit at night. I'd have to hope that taxiways are marked in some explicit way to make it clear that they're not runways, like with an X or some pattern of lights that's not on runways; or have all runways marked with an obvious pattern that indicates "land here" (so if you don't see that, you know you're not landi…

Large airports have fancy lighting schemes and are pretty obvious in good weather.

Small airports or bad weather at night are a different story - I would not fly into a new airport the first time in those conditions. Think 10x - 100x the risk.

Binoculars might be ok for the non-flying pilot to use, as long as he doesn't drop them on the floor and bind any rudder pedals.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#72

Post by zackbloom »

augustz wrote: post #45
nutcracker46 wrote: post #3

The report identifies good preventive measures. Autotuning the ILS would be handy, as would an aural alert for lateral deviation, perhaps announcing, "Localizer, Localizer." The crew may have caught the closure of 28L and planned better with a review of NOTAMS before top of descent and including them in the approach briefing. When I'm up there, and sleepy, I ask for a coffee and pull out the NOTAMS for one last look…

Just for SFO you have 84 NOTAMs. !SFO 06/079 SFO OBST RIG (ASN 2017-AWP-3368-NRA) 373740N1222224W (0.5NM NE SFO) 41FT (34FT AGL) FLAGGED AND LGTD 1806201400-1811010100 This is a flagged and lighted obstruction half a mile way that is 34 feet above ground level. Now put in a full route and takeoff airport and maybe if you have had some stops during the day. The NOTAM seems a bit long. Then if are overseas and have to…

This was 100% my read as well. NOTAMs are terribly formatted and have no priority distinction between ones which are essentially useless, and ones with meaningful consequences.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#73

Post by Waterluvian »

Speaking with a fair level of ignorance, how hard would it be for some onboard computer to be freaking out that a landing attempt is being made way off course of a known runway?

Going to guess this is one of those things where, yes, we have all the requisite technology, but practical implementation is the hard part.

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#74

Post by joezydeco »

joncrane wrote: post #59
joezydeco wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Watch this A380 landing at SFO, and watch the pilot's reaction when he's told he's cleared to land visually on 28L, but to expect the ILS for 28R. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENe89j89tBA What's up with that?

I watched way more of that than I should have. It was way more interesting than I thought it would be. I would love to be an airline captain.

PilotsEyeTV is a really really neat thing. They sell entire box sets of whole flights. It's pretty cool that the European airlines allow this amount of camera work in the cockpit:

http://pilotseye.tv/en/flightroutes/

If you really want to see something captivating, watch this clip of a Swiss A340 crew handling an overheating engine in-flight. It's incredibly well done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEf35NtlBLg

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#75

Post by benji-york »

SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #42
SaberTail wrote: post #13

If anyone would like to listen to the ATC radio: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW-ETmZU0u8

I love hearing ATC radio. I think the guy who did the classic SR71 story about upstaging everyone on some California flyby noted this pretty well - even in the times of near peril pilots and ATC will be the cool-as-steel that keep everyone calm.

https://oppositelock.kinja.com/favorite-sr-71-story-10791270...

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#76

Post by rconti »

glup wrote: post #34
bahmboo wrote: post #26

Gotta hand it to the NTSB - they are thorough. This is just the abstract.

Also that they cite fatigue / circadian low as one of the core causes. I thought they might avoid it because of the potential cost implications for the airline industry.

Yup - copied this to buffer for a comment:

> The flight crew’s work schedule for the incident flight complied with the applicable Canadian flight time limitations and rest requirements; however, the flight and duty time and rest requirements for the captain (a company reserve pilot) would not have complied with US flight time limitations and rest requirements (14 CFR Part 117).

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#77

Post by rocky1138 »

nraynaud wrote: post #53
oasisbob wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand it either. Here in Seattle, SeaTac airport has a parallel taxiway (Taxiway Tango) with a long history of being mistaken for a runway. The list of things tried so far to resolve the issue is interesting: https://www.bizjournals.com/seattle/news/2015/12/31/tango-ta...

make them jagged? (I'm half serious, if they are that much dangerous, then sorry for the people taxiing). They could also be made falsely jagged at night with the lighting system.

Who is to say that you won't now have planes coming down on a surface which constantly changes conditions, going from tarmac to grass and back again?

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#78

Post by bigiain »

DuskStar wrote: post #56
outworlder wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are more commonly found aboard 'experimental' aircraft because of the certification issues you pointed out.

And high-performance infrared cameras are also probably one of those things that end up on arms control lists. (Since it's not just useful for spotting planes on your "runway", but also for spotting tanks or people on your hill requesting an ordnance delivery)

I have several of these emails (when ordering to Australia):

Hello,

Your recent SparkFun order contains 1x KIT-13233: FLiR Dev Kit. This item is export controlled by the United States government. By law, we are required to gather the following information from you as the importer:

1) Do you intend to sell or send this item to anyone in any of the following countries: Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan, or Syria?

2) Will this be used in any military applications?

3) Will you be the ultimate end user of this item? If no, please go to 3.a.

3.a) If you are not the end user, who will this item be sold or transferred to? Please include full name, physical address, end use and confirmation that they will not sell or transfer this item to any party in Cuba, Iran, North Korea, Sudan or Syria.

4) What is the end use of this item?

5) Where is the location where the item will be used?

Response to all five questions is necessary before we are able to ship your order. If we don’t hear back from you within one week, your order will need to be canceled.Please let me know if you have any questions. I hope you have a great day!

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#79

Post by cjbprime »

outworlder wrote: post #51
SOLAR_FIELDS wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love hearing ATC radio. I think the guy who did the classic SR71 story about upstaging everyone on some California flyby noted this pretty well - even in the times of near peril pilots and ATC will be the cool-as-steel that keep everyone calm.

Another interesting one is the guy that was suffering from hypoxia. "Unable... to control... altitude" "Unable... to control... airspeed" "Unable... to control... heading" "Other than that, everything A-OK!" Guy landed safely after ATC realized it was hypoxia and ordered the flight to descend. EDIT: link https://fearoflanding.com/accidents/accident-reports/hypoxia...

Another close call: https://youtu.be/ag1-7qnkjv0 ("Pinch Hitting a King Air")

And the recent case of Captain Maggie: https://youtu.be/B229-KLudTo

Re: Abstract of the NTSB Report on Air Canada flight 759's taxiway overflight at SFO [pdf]

#80

Post by captain_perl »

Waterluvian wrote: post #73

Speaking with a fair level of ignorance, how hard would it be for some onboard computer to be freaking out that a landing attempt is being made way off course of a known runway? Going to guess this is one of those things where, yes, we have all the requisite technology, but practical implementation is the hard part.

Automatically monitoring an ILS approach is not that difficult from the cockpit if the frequency can be sent via ADS-B.

Beyond that it gets really hard because visual and circling approaches can be in any heading, as well as large cross-winds.

In this deviation, the pilots literally got lost. Kind of tough to do much about that.

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